A blue water sailer that can go in light winds - Page 54 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree11Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #531  
Old 04-27-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 530
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
GBurton is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I am not small, almost 1.90m and I have standing room in the Elan 350 and in the Pogo 10.50. On many old 35ft I know that I don't have standing room.

Now, about those 0,94m standing room, I wonder what modern cruiser are you referring to?

Regards

Paulo
Why, this one of course: Goes like hell when the sail is raised. Cutting edge

Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #532  
Old 05-02-2011
JomsViking's Avatar
Splashed
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 554
Thanks: 28
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 8
JomsViking is on a distinguished road
SmackDaddy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Way to miss the point again JV I did read the whole thread BTW.
And the term "cruiser" here may be a tad um "interpretive", but each to his own.

At least we can agree on point 3
Actually, that was tongue in cheek - I actually think he contributed some good stuff here too - His "style" is not always to everyones taste, but he did some very good summaries, calling out a lot of discrepancies in this thread.
(I'm still OK with bashing him, though )
__________________
Watch great footage about the story of one man’s slow odyssey around the UK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #533  
Old 05-02-2011
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,694
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Joms,

The issue with "WHAT" makes a good cruiser as I think you are implying, will depend upon a lot of factors, ie where you cruise, are you dock/marina hoping, going across a pond, be it literally 100 yds setting up a tent on the other side, or 100+ miles across a pond called the pacific, atlantic, Mediterranean, baltic or what ever sea or ocean or sound or __________

Hence where I am sure why some of us like one something, other slightly different.......all the above mentioned boats will cruise, its just where one will cruise them too. Just as my boat (article linked) while designed to ocean go, most probably would not take it across an Atlantic pond, but would the Med or salish sea where I am.

what works in light airs......not a colin archer, been on some of them........

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #534  
Old 05-02-2011
JomsViking's Avatar
Splashed
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 554
Thanks: 28
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 8
JomsViking is on a distinguished road
Blt2Ski,

I agree - I know what I would take, based on what I have learned doing it (albeit only in the Atlantic) - That's why I was defending several types of boats, and find that people should be more openminded to new boats.
Actually the Colin Archers CAN move in light air, because they had a decent amount of sail-area, some of the GRP copies are too heavy though, so make poorer sailers.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #535  
Old 05-02-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,133
Thanks: 84
Thanked 78 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by JomsViking View Post
Actually, that was tongue in cheek - I actually think he contributed some good stuff here too - His "style" is not always to everyones taste, but he did some very good summaries, calling out a lot of discrepancies in this thread.
(I'm still OK with bashing him, though )
Everyone loves my style. I can tell by all the pummeling I take.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #536  
Old 04-19-2012
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kyushu, Japan
Posts: 73
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Daily Alice is on a distinguished road
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Wow, after reading this thread I feel both enlightened and confused -- confused as to what I've been enlightened about.

There is a message I get from the "new, awesome, fast fun, performance" clan that is depressing for me, because from them I realize all older boats are outmoded and pigs, and I need to spend something north of $100K and also get drunk at boat shows, neither of which are in my remit. So Paulo, for instance, what about some good used boats that are a good balance of factors, and under say $90K? I realize this may not be your interest, but can you indulge me?

Then there are those here who have a lot of experience with older boats and for instance the discussion of the Newport 41 and "CCA era boats with IOR rigs" is interesting. This is also because, as I consider boats to buy for a solo or short-handed Trans-Pacific voyage, in my budget, I investigated previous record-holding/young-person circumnavigating boats. I think you can find the S&S 34 (J. Sanders, D. Dicks, J. Martin, J. Watson: lately, "Ella's Pink Lady," 2010; thank you Australia!), Islander 36 (reinforced/modified "Intrepid") , Contessa 32 (etc.) in these record books, and recently. Because these groups did not have massive corporate/wealth sponsorship, I think the boats were chosen in part based on budget (a custom-built craft would have been too costly).

So, what exactly is the problem with these boats, compared to newer designs? What would have been a better choice within the budget I mentioned (cost is a big factor in the real world; I am asking for apples to apples here, not price-no-object theoretical comparisons)?

Of course, the boats I just mentioned are all older designs. Isn't the S&S 34 in some ways similar to the Newport 41? (Please enlighten me on similar/different design features?)

More info here (PDF, Patrick Matthiesen, 2003):
S&S 34 – A Classic Ocean Racer/Cruiser/Voyager


Okay so, are all these older boats 1) pigs/dogs/turtles, 2) incapable of sailing well a) upwind and/or b) in light wind, 3) bad at marinas, 4) not really more seaworthy than the new designs? 5) not easier to sail than newer designs solo/short-handed by say someone who cannot bench 200lbs. in a storm?

I am interested in purchasing a "balanced" boat, and one that is tough too. What do you think -- is there a "middle way"? Any recommendations?

Last edited by Daily Alice; 04-19-2012 at 10:56 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #537  
Old 04-21-2012
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,133
Thanks: 84
Thanked 78 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Hey Alice, welcome to SN. You should look at PCP's epic "Interesting Sailboats" thread here: Interesting Sailboats

In my limited knowledge from the research and discussions here, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any of the boats you list.

At this point, for me, I like the Beneteau First series as an all-round fast, blue-water cruiser. And you can easily find used Firsts in the sub 100K range.

But, I also like Hunters...seriously. They really are a lot of "luxury" for the money, and are proving quite robust in blue-water as shown by our very own Sequitur.

I think it all really comes down to you, how you sail that boat, and what exactly you want out of it for the majority of time you're on it.

Hopefully PCP will come along and give you some options. Shoot him a PM if he doesn't see this thread.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #538  
Old 04-21-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,538
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 13
Sailormon6 will become famous soon enough
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
1. The OP asked for full-keel boats that go in light wind - with the presumed assumption that ONLY full-keel boats are REAL "blue water" cruisers.
-Simple answer...I assume...is...they don't exist. Full-keel boats are pigs in light air. Can we all agree on this?
I don't agree. I'll grant you that there are some true, full-keel, light air pigs, but not all of them. Sailing in light air has a little to do with the boat and alot to do with knowing how to sail in light air. If you don't know how to keep a full keel boat moving in light air, you probably won't do much better with any other boat, because, the fundamental principles of sailing are exactly the same, whether you're on a full-keeler or a fin-keeler, and, if you can't keep one driving, you probably won't do very well with the other.

Almost anyone can sail a boat reasonably well in 10-12 kts of wind, because there is enough wind that you can afford to waste some of it and still sail reasonably well. The reason why light air sailing is so difficult is because you have barely enough moving air to move the boat, and you can't afford to waste any of it. Therefore, you have to not only maximize the amount of drive that you extract from the moving air with the sails, but you also have to minimize the amount of drag wherever you find it. Most people don't do either very well in light air.

I frequently crew on a friend's old Alberg designed full keeler, and we consider light air our chance to beat some of the modern fin keel racers, not just on handicap, but scratch. We don't beat them all, because there are always a few guys who really know how to sail in light air, but it's amazing how many modern racers drop out and start their engines just because they can't keep them moving.

You don't often hear a boat owner say "I have no skill at light air sailing." They usually say "My boat is a pig in light air."

Logic tells us that you ought to be able to spend lots of money and get a boat that performs better, but that only works for power boats. In sailing, it doesn't work that way. You still have to know how to make it go.
mitiempo likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #539  
Old 04-21-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
I don't agree. I'll grant you that there are some true, full-keel, light air pigs, but not all of them. Sailing in light air has a little to do with the boat and alot to do with knowing how to sail in light air. If you don't know how to keep a full keel boat moving in light air, you probably won't do much better with any other boat, because, the fundamental principles of sailing are exactly the same, whether you're on a full-keeler or a fin-keeler, and, if you can't keep one driving, you probably won't do very well with the other.

...

I frequently crew on a friend's old Alberg designed full keeler, and we consider light air our chance to beat some of the modern fin keel racers, not just on handicap, but scratch. We don't beat them all, because there are always a few guys who really know how to sail in light air, but it's amazing how many modern racers drop out and start their engines just because they can't keep them moving.

....
If you don't know how to sail you cannot move a sailboat but the difference between an old Alberg full keeler and a modern fast cruiser in light winds is HUGE, providing people know how to sail.

Just to give you an example and comparing an Alberg 30 with an Elan 31 sailing with 8K wind, the Elan is about 2 times faster.

More precisely, considering true wind:

at 40º the Alberg is making 3.1K; the Elan is making 5.2K.

at 60º the Alberg is makig 3.2K; the Elan is making 6.5K.

at 90º the Alberg is makig 3.0K; the Elan is making 6.7k.

at 130º the Alberg is makig 2.7K; the Elan is making 6.5k.

The Elan is a good cruising boat with a great interior and a very good stability. If we compare the Alberg 30 with an offshore cruiser more race oriented like the A31, those differences would be bigger.





Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #540  
Old 04-21-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
Wow, after reading this thread I feel both enlightened and confused -- confused as to what I've been enlightened about.

There is a message I get from the "new, awesome, fast fun, performance" clan that is depressing for me, because from them I realize all older boats are outmoded and pigs, and I need to spend something north of $100K and also get drunk at boat shows, neither of which are in my remit. So Paulo, for instance, what about some good used boats that are a good balance of factors, and under say $90K? I realize this may not be your interest, but can you indulge me?

...
I am sorry if I gave you that impression I mean that all old boats are pigs. Believe me I don't think that. I believe that modern boats are overall better than older boats but that does not mean that old boats are pigs.

Some where very advanced for their time and are still good boats, like the Vailant 40 or the Farr 38, just to give you examples of two different types of boats. Off course if you compare the Farr 38 to a modern Xp 38 or a Grand Soleil 39 I would have to say the modern boat is better, the same if you compare a Vailant with a Najad 410. That is natural, many years separates those designs and in meantime the materials and the design knowledge have evolved.

You ask me to give you an opinion. That is a tricky thing to do because as you have understood there are very different opinions about what is a boat that has a "good balance of factors" for about 100K.

I would point you two boats from the same designer both remarkably good and modern boats for their design time, an older one from 1988, the Benetau 411 and a more modern one, the Benetau 37, from 2007.

The Benetau 37 you can only have them from 2007 but one thing is the asking price other the sell price. I guess with time you can get one by about 100K.

2006 Beneteau (Sail) Boats For Sale

The Beneteau 411 will be easier to get by that money.


http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/lis...dedSelected=-1


Of course this is my idea of an overall well balanced boat by that price. Others will have different ideas

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-21-2012 at 03:01 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Keeping Water Sweet paul323 Gear & Maintenance 56 04-23-2011 12:35 PM
Boat speed vs Boat length in light winds Daveinet General Discussion (sailing related) 5 08-22-2010 08:47 PM
Blue water skipper and crew ScottUK Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 08-05-2010 04:11 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:48 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.