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  #541  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
Therefore, you have to not only maximize the amount of drive that you extract from the moving air with the sails, but you also have to minimize the amount of drag wherever you find it.

You don't often hear a boat owner say "I have no skill at light air sailing."
Minimize drag. Like the drag of thousands of extra pounds of full keel maybe? Heh-heh.

I get your point, but you're really comparing sailors here, not boats. As the polars show, the Alberg, compared to the Elan, is a pig. No way around that. Sure, put a Tourette's-afflicted spastic monkey at the helm of the Elan and the Alberg might prevail...but that's because of the spastic monkey...not the performance of the Alberg.

As for your last sentence, absolutely true. However, I DO often hear "You have no skill at light air sailing."
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S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-21-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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  #542  
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Thanks, Smackdaddy and Paulo, for your replies. I will consider these designs along with older designs. It's helpful to get an idea of what what be considered in newer designs, for the practical buyer (i.e. at an 'affordable' price point).

Smack..: Different topic, but reading around online there are various horror stories about the quality of Hunters ...
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  #543  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
Smack..: Different topic, but reading around online there are various horror stories about the quality of Hunters ...
Yeah, there always have been. The issue is, I just don't buy most of them.

A member here, Michael, has a very, very respectable pedigree as a seaman...and he picked the Hunter 49 as his boat after a lot of research and deliberation. He just took Sequitur around Cape Horn, then into an F10-11 that crossed his path. The boat did fine.

That's good enough "quality" for me...especially with the kind of sailing I plan to do for the next 10 years.

Sequitur

Oh, and here is another blue-water boat of questionable quality that did 4 knots in light winds using blankets as a sail...and it was a stinkpot:

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  #544  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Smack

Sequitur is a 49' Hunter, near or at the top of their line. The largest or most expensive of any product line is usually the best built and most featured, whether it is a sailboat, car, or toaster. Good on the crew of Sequitur but it is as representative of the rest of the Hunter line as a Ford F350 truck is of their least expensive car, or a Catalina 22 compared to their biggest and best.

Horror stories don't start out of thin air - there is usually some basis of fact involved.
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  #545  
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Smack

Sequitur is a 49' Hunter, near or at the top of their line. The largest or most expensive of any product line is usually the best built and most featured, whether it is a sailboat, car, or toaster. Good on the crew of Sequitur but it is as representative of the rest of the Hunter line as a Ford F350 truck is of their least expensive car, or a Catalina 22 compared to their biggest and best.

Horror stories don't start out of thin air - there is usually some basis of fact involved.
True miti. But I still think most of the Hunter bashing is sailor-nerd hysteria. Why else would Beneteau adopt the much-maligned arch technology?



There is, without doubt, SOME basis of fact involved as you say. I just think that for the sailing most of us will ever do, the other 99% of fact involved shows that most any boat will handle the conditions she's sailed into by a competent sailor. It's WAY more about the sailor than it is about the gear.
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  #546  
Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
True miti. But I still think most of the Hunter bashing is sailor-nerd hysteria. Why else would Beneteau adopt the much-maligned arch technology?


There is, without doubt, SOME basis of fact involved as you say. I just think that for the sailing most of us will ever do, the other 99% of fact involved shows that most any boat will handle the conditions she's sailed into by a competent sailor. It's WAY more about the sailor than it is about the gear.
Ideas that are used by one builder, if thought successful, are often copied by other builders. That is in many ways more marketing than build quality.

Hunter - and Catalina - are not designed and built to be offshore boats and I think neither Warren Luhrs or Frank Butler would overbuild a boat designed for coastal/weekend use with additional materials - it's not a cost effective plan - they are built well enough for their intended purpose.

Beneteau in my opinion is a better built boat. I think the European attitude is different for one thing. But as I work on many boats I get to see how they are put together, and I see the parts some owners never get to. My big complaint of Beneteau is access, not lack of strength. This is due to the liner and grid that seems to cover the entire interior. When you look at all the hidden corners of a Beneteau what you see is an incredible simplicity of construction tailored to a mass production level. The wood is well done but there are as few pieces as possible. There is never a rough edge of fiberglass or evidence of sloppy work in the most hard to get to corner. Both Hunter and to a lesser extent Catalina have some rough edges. The equipment layout on a Beneteau is well thought out and easy to access. I was on a 36' Hunter a few weeks ago and I can't say the same about it. Important items like pumps were hard to access and a nightmare to replace. I would definitely regard Beneteau as more refined.


Here is a link to an interesting interview with Jim Bohart of Hunter. It is well worth reading. HunterOwners.com - Hunter Q&A He gets asked a lot of tough questions about items that are never mentioned in magazine reviews.
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  #547  
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Ideas that are used by one builder, if thought successful, are often copied by other builders. That is in many ways more marketing than build quality.

Hunter - and Catalina - are not designed and built to be offshore boats and I think neither Warren Luhrs or Frank Butler would overbuild a boat designed for coastal/weekend use with additional materials - it's not a cost effective plan - they are built well enough for their intended purpose.

Beneteau in my opinion is a better built boat. I think the European attitude is different for one thing. But as I work on many boats I get to see how they are put together, and I see the parts some owners never get to. My big complaint of Beneteau is access, not lack of strength. This is due to the liner and grid that seems to cover the entire interior. When you look at all the hidden corners of a Beneteau what you see is an incredible simplicity of construction tailored to a mass production level. The wood is well done but there are as few pieces as possible. There is never a rough edge of fiberglass or evidence of sloppy work in the most hard to get to corner. Both Hunter and to a lesser extent Catalina have some rough edges. The equipment layout on a Beneteau is well thought out and easy to access. I was on a 36' Hunter a few weeks ago and I can't say the same about it. Important items like pumps were hard to access and a nightmare to replace. I would definitely regard Beneteau as more refined.


Here is a link to an interesting interview with Jim Bohart of Hunter. It is well worth reading. HunterOwners.com - Hunter Q&A He gets asked a lot of tough questions about items that are never mentioned in magazine reviews.
I've read that interview and linked it here several times as well. It was actually conducted by our very own Jeff_H. Great stuff.

As for Hunters not being designed and built as an off-shore boat....

Quote:
CWBB It has been pointed out that Hunter has received the highest level of the EU's new seaworthiness ratings. This rating category indicates that the vessel is designed to withstand conditions of approximately 40 knot. winds and 12-foot seas. Hunter's ads, however seem to suggest that the rating implies that the boats are designed to take anything that they might encounter in open ocean cruising. Are Hunters designed for the kind of conditions they might encounter in some of the nastier areas of the world, such as the major Capes or a North Atlantic passage?

JB All current Hunter boats 34' and larger built for European delivery are certified by IMCI to be in compliance with the relevant parts of the Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/CE. The CE mark means that the craft meets or exceeds all current standards and directives of the International Organization for Standardization in effect at the time of construction. All Hunters 34' and larger comply with the CE A design category. Those built for US delivery would have to have a serial number change that is not accepted by the US Coast Guard documentation service and lack various safety placards, stove shielding, and VHF radio specs required by the IMCI. Otherwise the construction is identical. The specific language used by the IMCI is: "Category A Ocean: Craft designed for extended voyages where conditions experienced may exceed wind force 8 and include significant wave heights of 4m, for vessels that are largely self sufficient." The key you're missing is the word "exceed." Yes, we believe the boats capable of rounding the major capes and of North Atlantic passage; several have. All our boats delivered over the past 5-6 years to our Cape Town South Africa dealer have been on their own bottoms. The skill of the captain and crew, proper preparation, appropriate safety equipment are of course essential to safe sailing and are not included when the boat leaves our plant but can be added.
Though I definitely respect the fact that you actually work on these boats, I'm just saying there's plenty of evidence out there that contradicts your position. Like you I prefer Benes. But I have nothing against and even like the Hunters, even though they, like any other boat, will have their flaws.
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  #548  
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Here is a post made by Jeff a few years ago discussing exactly what "Category A Ocean" may mean - it is not necessarily what you think.
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  #549  
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
True miti. But I still think most of the Hunter bashing is sailor-nerd hysteria. Why else would Beneteau adopt the much-maligned arch technology?
Smacky, they didn't! The Bene still has a backstay...... You could say they stole the idea from Malo, but forgot the traveller.
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Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Here is a post made by Jeff a few years ago discussing exactly what "Category A Ocean" may mean - it is not necessarily what you think.
Category A does not mean a boat is designed for offshore work it stands for a minimum of requisites and stability that are judged as necessary to sail offshore. Those minimums without being perfect result of the work of many reputable architects of several nationalities and the requirements are not a closed book. The rules have been perfected and improved with the years trying to obtain more adjusted results. I guess that even myself could make some suggestions to improve that rule not in what regards the minimums but in what regards results control.

Good small boats with good overall stability like the Elan 310 make it as a class A boat and I remember that some years ago a Dehler 29 had also make it but that is about as close as you can get in size, at least regarding modern light boats. It is not easy a boat of that size to pass the criteria to make it to class A and it has to be a very well designed and seaworthy boat for its size.

Saying this, that is a minimum. It is obvious that a Hunter 49 a Bavaria 36 and a Elan 310, all class A boats have different levels of seaworthiness. This off course does not mean that you cannot safely cross the Atlantic in an Elan 310. Similar types of boats and probably the Elan 310 do that in large numbers on the Transquadra, racing solo or duo and I don't remember of any that has been capsized.

Regards

Paulo
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