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post #551 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Look, I am going to get in trouble for saying this, but what is it about Americans, well actually all of the western world come to think of it Australia included, that we require a certificate, or stamp of some kind of 'standard' to tell us whether we can sail a certain boat across an ocean or not???

If a bunch of geeks on a panel tell me a boat is 'certified' category A then I guess I can just hop right on board and sail off into the blue yonder with my family trusting all is good?? If I could just get the geeks to programme the waypoints into my GPS and then get some weather geeks to model the weather and then I won't have to think for myself at all

I think if you need any kind of standard to determine for YOU whether your boat is or is not suitable to cross an ocean than you really have no business crossing oceans.

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Last edited by chall03; 04-22-2012 at 07:26 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #552 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Look, I am going to get in trouble for saying this, but what is it about Americans, well actually all of the western world come to think of it Australia included, that we require a certificate, or stamp of some kind of 'standard' to tell us whether we can sail a certain boat across an ocean or not???

If a bunch of geeks on panel tell me a boat is 'certified' category A then I guess I can just hop right on board and sail off into the blue yonder with my family trusting all is good?? If I could just get the geeks to programme the waypoints into my GPS and then get some weather geeks to model the weather and then I won't have to think for myself at all

I think if you need any kind of standard to determine for YOU whether your boat is or is not suitable to cross an ocean than you really have no business crossing oceans.
I am not saying that standard should be mandatory. That is another discussion. The purpose of the RCD is to give information to not knowledgeable consumers about boat stability and seaworthiness.

Those minimum requirements while disputable were set by a large body of NA and it will provide some valuable information to the ones that know nothing about boat stability or boat seaworthiness.

It is up to the consumer to set their one rules about what he considers the minimum requirements in what regards a boat to go offshore...at his own risk, even if the insurance companies will probably refuse to insure for offshore a boat that has not been classified as class A by the RCD.

Regards

Paulo
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post #553 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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I am not saying that standard should be mandatory. That is another discussion. The purpose of the RCD is to give information to not knowledgeable consumers about boat stability and seaworthiness.

Those minimum requirements while disputable were set by a large body of NA and it will provide some valuable information to the ones that know nothing about boat stability or boat seaworthiness.

It is up to the consumer to set their one rules about what he considers the minimum requirements in what regards a boat to go offshore...at his own risk, even if the insurance companies will probably refuse to insure for offshore a boat that has not been classified as class A by the RCD.

Regards

Paulo
I agree Paulo,

It is useful for sure, as is the stability curve, Displacement to Length ratio, what the guy at the end of the bar thinks and any and all other information out there. In fact A category A Ocean rating is a great indicator that a boat is a suitable contender for bluewater sailing. It just seems some folk want it to be a guarantee that a boat is capable of doing something that is inherently a risk taking venture.

My issue is philosophical, surely if you are going to round a cape, then being able to understand and comprehend yacht design for oneself, and make a decision about what kind of craft you would consider appropriate and how to sail that boat in all conditions is something to figure out for oneself. Offshore sailing is about being self reliant and making self assessments and judgements without someone telling you what to do.

'Life is either a daring adventure or nothing' - Helen Keller



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post #554 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Found the thread here -- the CE EU link is still live here -- but there is no list of boats?

The same thing as
"CE certification by Lloyd's Register Quality Assurance for Category A (Ocean)"?

All sorts of problematic issues and oversights are reported, doing a search of forums, concerning the comprehensiveness of the specifications. Still, could be there's useful information, nonetheless, to consider, within limits.

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Here is a post made by Jeff a few years ago discussing exactly what "Category A Ocean" may mean - it is not necessarily what you think.
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post #555 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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If you don't know how to sail you cannot move a sailboat but the difference between an old Alberg full keeler and a modern fast cruiser in light winds is HUGE, providing people know how to sail.

Just to give you an example and comparing an Alberg 30 with an Elan 31 sailing with 8K wind, the Elan is about 2 times faster.

More precisely, considering true wind:

at 40º the Alberg is making 3.1K; the Elan is making 5.2K.

at 60º the Alberg is makig 3.2K; the Elan is making 6.5K.

at 90º the Alberg is makig 3.0K; the Elan is making 6.7k.

at 130º the Alberg is makig 2.7K; the Elan is making 6.5k.

The Elan is a good cruising boat with a great interior and a very good stability. If we compare the Alberg 30 with an offshore cruiser more race oriented like the A31, those differences would be bigger.





Regards

Paulo
I don't know where these polars came from or who was at the wheel or what sail configuration was used but I can tell you my A35 (very similar to the A30 in design) goes a hell of a lot faster than 3 knots with 8 knots of wind on a beam reach. With 160 genny and full main, I am doing closer to 6 knots, still relatively slow when compared to modern hull designs but not THAT slow.

Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
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post #556 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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...

My issue is philosophical, surely if you are going to round a cape, then being able to understand and comprehend yacht design for oneself, and make a decision about what kind of craft you would consider appropriate and how to sail that boat in all conditions is something to figure out for oneself. Offshore sailing is about being self reliant and making self assessments and judgements without someone telling you what to do.
That's my time to agree

Even if I would gladly take an Elan 310 on a duo racing tarnsat (because I like the idea and the race gives a warranty of a quick help if something goes wrong) I would not have one for doing extensive blue water sailing. For doing that I consider that among the modern cruisers the right size is between 38 and 45 ft (if you sail mostly solo). Not saying that you cannot do it with a good security margin on a 36ft but that is just what I would prefer.

As important as the boat size is the boat condition and equipment. Boats are not different than cars, if you have an older one, even with good maintenance you are more prone that something goes wrong. It can never happen, just a statistic possibility. Insurance companies understand that very well. Have a look at the premiums increase as the boat go older.

But most of all the knowledge and experience of the sailor is paramount to the boat safety.

Regards

Paulo
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post #557 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Of course the modern designs are capable of pointing higher and footing faster than the old Albergs. I never said they weren't. But they can't do it all by themselves. The modern designs still need someone who knows how to maximize their boatspeed and minimize their drag. Giving such a boat to a guy who lacks the skill to sail it is like giving an Indy racer to a high school hot rodder. He won't know what to do with it. It makes more sense to first learn how to sail a boat in light air, and then buy a boat that will allow him to make the most of his skills. If he doesn't know how to maximize the boat's potential, then he's wasting it's potential.

Maybe I am misconstruing this thread, but it sounds an awful lot like the OP is asking what kind of boat will make him a good light air sailor. If so, the answer is "No boat will do that." He would do better to ask "How can I become a good light air sailor?" But, he doesn't even need to do that. He can just search the archives for some of Jeff_H's discussions of the subject. Jeff knows how to sail in light air, and explains it clearly.

Too many people think all they need to sail in light air is a light air sailboat, and all they need to hit long, straight golf shots is a fine set of clubs. It doesn't work that way. Too bad, because I could be a great golfer if only I had a great set of clubs.

Last edited by Sailormon6; 04-22-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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post #558 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Found the thread here -- the CE EU link is still live here -- but there is no list of boats?

The same thing as
"CE certification by Lloyd's Register Quality Assurance for Category A (Ocean)"?

All sorts of problematic issues and oversights are reported, doing a search of forums, concerning the comprehensiveness of the specifications. Still, could be there's useful information, nonetheless, to consider, within limits.
Alice, this is a relative new thing so a 20 year old boat would not be rated not meaning they are not seaworthy, just that they were not certified. They stated to be certified in 1998.

As I have said some 30ft boats are certified as A category, most 34ft are and practically all 36ft pass the requirements.

A list is pretty much unnecessary unless you want to buy a 30ft modern boat.

If you want some sort of list this is a better one since on some boats they give the AVS. However those AVS can differ slightly with the computer program that was used to generate them. For comparison purposes is better to use the ones on the ORCI certificates, when available. Those are all taken the same way and directly comparable between them but not with the computer generated ones.

Google: RYA stability list

and download the XLS document (second on the list).

Regards

Paulo
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post #559 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

It's been interesting reading, almost used half of my Sunday for the whole tread , what du you think about salona 45 for sale here

http://www.yachtworld.dk/baade/2003/Salona-45-1727495/country.kroatien
for 74000 eur you can not go wrong, put for instance 20 k more and you have perfect blue water boat which is modern design, big enough, I know it is former charter boat but at this price it is almost unbeatable!
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post #560 of 576 Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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It's been interesting reading, almost used half of my Sunday for the whole tread , what du you think about salona 45 for sale here

2003 Salona 45 Sejl Båd til salg - www.yachtworld.dk
for 74000 eur you can not go wrong, put for instance 20 k more and you have perfect blue water boat which is modern design, big enough, I know it is former charter boat but at this price it is almost unbeatable!
Yes I agree and even if that interior is a lot less nicer than the ones from the new Salonas the boat has a great price and it will make a good offshore boat with the right equipment.

Here you can see the same boat for a lot more money

Salona 45 - Salona Yachts

That charter company is directly run by the factory so they can put there the boats at factory cost and that is a big advantage for them in what regards price. Now they want to change the 45 on charter by the newer 44 and they want it for the next charter season so they want to sell it fast. As you can see the boat was at a very different price.

Buying to them has another advantage: if you want to change something on the boat or make a small alteration or add equipment it would be made by the factory (that is few kms away) providing you don't ask them in the summer

Regards

Paulo
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