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  #561  
Old 04-22-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Google: RYA stability list

and download the XLS document (second on the list).
That link does not return the latest list. The most recent version can be found at Stability Data | Regulations & Safety | Information & Advice | RYA
Look under "downloads" on the right side of the page.

It must be about due for another update.
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  #562  
Old 04-23-2012
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A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

just want to leave a short reply. I used to windsurf a lot and when you have big waves you need to go surfing very fast, and evrything becomes easier, no drag anymore and you have speed enough to go above white tops etc. So even though it can not be directly compared to sailing boats, I do understand your points concernig those new designs. the only question is if it is possible to maintain those high surfing speed and how much effort you need to put into it. Anyway I just want to say that I understand your points from windsurf angle. On the other side I own elan 34 from 1997 And I do find it a bit scary when in big waves and once it start surfing, so I hope that those new designs feel much more stable under heavy seas or it would be a very long trip across the dam
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  #563  
Old 04-23-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by ama_elan34 View Post
just want to leave a short reply. I used to windsurf a lot and when you have big waves you need to go surfing very fast, and evrything becomes easier, no drag anymore and you have speed enough to go above white tops etc. So even though it can not be directly compared to sailing boats, I do understand your points concernig those new designs. the only question is if it is possible to maintain those high surfing speed and how much effort you need to put into it. Anyway I just want to say that I understand your points from windsurf angle. On the other side I own elan 34 from 1997 And I do find it a bit scary when in big waves and once it start surfing, so I hope that those new designs feel much more stable under heavy seas or it would be a very long trip across the dam
That was not what I meant to say. You donīt need to go to high surfing speeds, you just need to keep the boat sailing. You don't need to go very fast on a modern boat to take advantage of its dynamic stability properties.

That was not what I said but it works also the way you say on very light and sportive cruisers and the Elan 350 or the Pogo 10.50 are good examples of that kind of boat. Here you have a very light racing 35ft sailed solo in extreme conditions. I don’t mean the weather but the sail the boat carries.




He would be a lot safer and not doing much less speed with a bit less sail.

You can see that the guy is confident enough on his boat to leave the boat on autopilot and go forward to put a spinnaker….now that was really too much abuse and the boat could not take it, I mean not going safely downwind on autopilot with full main and jib but the spinnaker.

Not a problem to recover the boat and get going again…with no spinnaker but at a fantastic speed.

I am not telling you that this is cruising, even if it is certainly having fun, but with some less sail and some less speed he would be cruising on autopilot doing double figures in all safety.

Similar boats got last night, on a Transat that is going on, 45K winds. All keep racing, none went for defensive sailing and none had a problem with seaworthiness.



Regards

Paulo
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  #564  
Old 04-23-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Great vid PCP. I love how it looks like the spinnaker is going to fly that boat at 1:12. Wow.
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  #565  
Old 04-23-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Great vid PCP. I love how it looks like the spinnaker is going to fly that boat at 1:12. Wow.
It seems that he might have put the spin up just for the photo shoot. Then after the broach he took it down?
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Old 04-24-2012
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A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

paulo, I agree, what I wanted to say is that once windsurf board is up and surfing, not necceserely at high speeds just surfing, than everything is easier, it is easier to steer, no drag at all, rig is lighter to hold, it is easier to come above white tops etc... just saying that there are some similarities...
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Old 04-24-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by therapy23 View Post
It seems that he might have put the spin up just for the photo shoot. Then after the broach he took it down?
Yes I guess that it was that. Obviously sailing the boat on those conditions with a full sail and a big spinnaker is quite mad and no wonder the boat suffers occasional broaches. The thing to retain is that the guy is out there alone and he knows that with a modern boat with good stability recovering from a broach is not a problem. After taking the spinnaker the boat seems rock stable.

Here you have another guy, same boat (Beneteau Figaro II) on even worse conditions. Off course the spinnaker is too much and broaches are too be expected if someone is using it with that kind of wind, especially alone. Even full sail, I mean main and jib with 40 to 50 K winds is crazy. Only a very good solo racer showing off or sailing at 110% trying to win a race would try that stunt.


Last edited by PCP; 04-24-2012 at 05:40 AM.
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  #568  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

This thread starts out asking about “Blue Water” boats in “Light airs“. That usually implies certain requirements. The thread ended showing a nice video of a race boat in heavy air. I see no dinghy on that boat or an anchor. It also probably does not have 70 gallons of water aboard nor 3000#s of stuff. But, thanks anyway Paulo.
This thread also took the common route from good advice to some ridiculously poor information. Thanks to RichH and a few others we heard the truth. The poor information, as usual, comes from the theorist.
Once again the Westsail 32 was mentioned as a boat to stay away from. Jeff H says “the Westsail 32 is useless as a sailboat in winds under 8k”. Many of you jumped in to agree. GeorgeB being just one. The “Proof” is the wetted surface and the “High drag”. How high is that drag? I don’t believe any of you actually mentioned how many pounds of drag there is in a 32’ full keel vs. a 32’ fin keel when both keels are very smooth.
There are a number of explanations as to why all of you have usually seen W-32s sailing around slowly. The number one reason, by far, is the boat owner. Many boat owners have completely different priorities than you do and their boat performance reflects that. In most cases you attribute that slowness to other aspects of the boat. In my opinion, the wrong aspects. As just one example: if you see a Hans Christian sailing slowly are you thinking about the fixed 3 bladed propeller the boat might be dragging or the 200+ books aboard the boat?
I can respectfully acknowledge that one’s opinions and convictions are determined by their own experiences as are ones world views; thus the differences in people are far greater than in those between boats.
How slow is a W-32 in light winds? The following event was well documented and tracked by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Days 4 through 7 (or so) of the 2010 SHTP (single handed trans pac) were in extremely light winds. Head winds and following winds occurred, often less than 4k. It was during this time that the W-32 made its biggest gains against all the other boats. Valiant 40, Olson 34, Islander 36, Martin 32, Express 27, just to name a few. The W-32 had all of the theoretical strikes against it yet it still was able to sail equally, Boat for Boat, to any of the other boats (that had propellers in the water). There is a real world explanation, but make up your own conclusions if you will. You cannot get the proper explanation from a theorist. The only real truth is that boats like a W-32 are quite a bit better sail boats than our experts want you to believe. I must question their agenda. Our experts, Paulo included, grossly exaggerate the benefits of the modern design.
The accompanying photos show a W-32 off the coast of Washington. The TRUE wind is approximately 3.1k. Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Do you think that your boat could do a lot better? And, don’t forget to put that dinghy and the anchors, and 70 gallons of water, and the 3000#s of stuff aboard when you make that test.
Quote: Jeff H; “Calling a spade a spade is not denigrating anyone’s boat. Its just simple honesty”
Thanks for listening



GBurton and souljour2000 like this.

Last edited by Oregonian; 06-06-2012 at 01:13 AM.
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  #569  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Not that I have any dog in this thread, but Oregonian, you know well that ISAF race rules (and PIYA) require two anchors and ground tackle appropriate to the length and displacement of the boat. There's no need to tell us what a race boat 'doesn't' have when in fact it's required. That includes both fuel and water for the journey. Hot showers? A dishwasher? No. I'm glad you love your Westsail and that you sail it well, but yes, I do believe many boats will do better in light air including my own. You corrected out if I remember, which means you sailed very well for your rating. You didn't sail faster boat for boat. But do correct me if I'm wrong. No worries though. My opinion isn't all that important, and congrats! Honestly, you sail the hell out of your boat. Your results are nothing short of amazing. It's scary to imagine what might happen if you were sailing something lighter and faster.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 06-05-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

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Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
Not that I have any dog in this thread, but Oregonian, you know well that ISAF race rules (and PIYA) require two anchors and ground tackle appropriate to the length and displacement of the boat. There's no need to tell us what a race boat 'doesn't' have when in fact it's required. That includes both fuel and water for the journey. Hot showers? A dishwasher? No. I'm glad you love your Westsail and that you sail it well, but yes, I do believe many boats will do better in light air including my own. You corrected out if I remember, which means you sailed very well for your rating. You didn't sail faster boat for boat. But do correct me if I'm wrong. No worries though. My opinion isn't all that important, and congrats!
What boat do you have puddinglegs?
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