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  #51  
Old 03-04-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The boat has to be able to stand up to her canvas. If it is a heavy boat, especially one with a lot of wetted surface it needs sail area, and for that to work well, stability. More ballast, lower ballast, and a lighter rig all help.
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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
But the cost to make major changes to an older boat would be high and not really worth it. Probably better to get a boat that can sail well as designed.
Thanks for your reply. I understand the example given. Going from cast iron ballast to lead without changing the ballast weight accomplishes what you were talking about, albeit with shorter moment arms. I have seen postings by a Hinckley owner who went to a carbon fiber mast - I'm not willing to go that far. However, going from a solid wooden spar to an aluminum mast offers a similar, if lesser benefit.

I am interested enough in the earlier designs to build rather than buy. While building is more expensive than buying (used), I think it might be more practical than major surgery on something like the Luders 33.

I guess a way to rephrase the question I had about sails would have been to ask what sort of improvement have people seen when upgrading their sails. Has anyone quantified the benefits of newer sail technology (cloth, cut, etc.) versus old when refitting something like a Luders 33?
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  #52  
Old 03-04-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The sails of the boat are its engine and the boat stability what is needed to be able to carry the sails. Boats with a huge stability can carry lots of sail area, boats with small stability can carry only a small sail area. The boat stability is given in a most considerable part by form stability (beam) and also by the lower center of gravity (ballast).

Let's assume two 12m sailing boats and assuming that both have the same water line length, hull shape and weight (not planning hulls) but that one has a lot of stability and a lot of sail area and the other has a small stability and small sail area. Like on the motor boats, on ideal conditions, flat water and 18K of wind (depending on the boat), both boats would not have very different speeds.

On any other conditions the difference would be huge. Like on the motor boat, with waves, each wave will tend to stop the boat. The boat with small power will diminish its velocity and will start to accelerate slowly, just to be stopped again by the next wave. The powerful boat will power it's way trough the waves without losing speed. On more difficult conditions the low power boat cannot even make way against the sea and wind because the power available is just not enough.

With weak winds the big sail area of the powerful boat will permit it to reach hull speed with 9 k wind. At that wind speed the small sail area low power sailboat will be sufficient only for half the hull speed. And if we consider smaller wind speeds the differences in speed would even be greater. With 5K of wind the powerful boat will be doing about 5K speed upwind while the low power sailboat will be doing 1 or 2K.

I hope this helps to explain the differences in speed between powerful sailboats and low power sailboats.

Regards

Paulo
Thanks for your reply. I understand the stability issue and the power issue. I also understand the contribution of the waterline length.

What I am trying to evaluate is how much improvement can be expected from getting the older designs a bit closer to the newer designs, which benefit from several decades of developments in materials. The design parameters that I view as being available to change are

1. Ballast type: lead -vs- cast iron
2. Lighter spars and lighter, lower drag rigging
3. Better sails

The basic shape of the hull isn't being considered as a variable. Building the hull a bit lighter and increasing the ballast to displacement ratio might be, but I have a lot of faith in the basic designs. The sail area might be treated as a variable, particularly as other changes increase stability, but the idea isn't to restart the design spiral so much as it is to fine tune an older design with improvements in materials (spars and sails) and a better budget (lead for cast iron).
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  #53  
Old 03-04-2011
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Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Here is Bob Perry who created the "Wetsnail" moniker explaining his agenda.

original document: http://www.sailnet.com/photogallery/...le=7280&size=1
Thanks for your reply. I could not get the link to work, but the important point seems to be that older hull forms should not be completely written off.

Having said that and believing it to be true, I imagine there is some data that supports a nickname like "Wetsnail." It would interesting if there was a bit more detail to Perry's comments.
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First of all there are no 'blue water boats' in my opinion.
I'll rather cross the northern Atlantic in a Vega with an experienced 'blue water sailor' than in a HR52 with someone that thinks his boat may handle everything that comes!
Fin keel, full keel, free hanging rudder, skegg hinged rudder, keel-hinged rudder they all works if designed and built correctly.
Find a boat YOU (and the BOSS) are comfortable with handling and maneuvering both of you!
As for light wind sailing. that is a lot in the sails.
I just changed my old main and genua that have served me well 20.000 miles from Norway to Malaysia with a new set from UK Halsey, Batmain and Passagemaker, both Dacron.
From last year being 'a mile behind', I got 3 line honors in this years Langkawi regatta in winds more like a duck-fart!

It is the crew and captain that makes the boat, not the other way around.
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  #55  
Old 03-04-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTB View Post
....

What I am trying to evaluate is how much improvement can be expected from getting the older designs a bit closer to the newer designs, which benefit from several decades of developments in materials. The design parameters that I view as being available to change are

1. Ballast type: lead -vs- cast iron
2. Lighter spars and lighter, lower drag rigging
3. Better sails

The basic shape of the hull isn't being considered as a variable. Building the hull a bit lighter and increasing the ballast to displacement ratio might be, but I have a lot of faith in the basic designs. The sail area might be treated as a variable, particularly as other changes increase stability, but the idea isn't to restart the design spiral so much as it is to fine tune an older design with improvements in materials (spars and sails) and a better budget (lead for cast iron).
Basically new boats versus older ones have more beam. Beam is by far the most efficient way of increasing the boat initial stability, the one that is used to power the boat. Modern technologies and materials have permitted the use of all the ballast inside a bulb suspended down on the end of a long keel (that sometimes can be lifted). This permits the better of three worlds, to increase hugely initial stability (beam) to have a decent final stability when the boat is knocked down (ballast) and to have light boats that don't need a large sail area to sail well with weak winds.

Without changing the hull shape and keel you are limited to what you have said, lead instead of iron, carbon masts and good sails, but the results in speed would not be very noticeable. Probably you would notice more the difference at bigger angles of heel, that are not used for sail. I mean, you would get a boat that recovers faster from a knock down, but one that has only slighted improved its initial stability and as I have said, that's the one that is used to power the boat.

Modern boats that use what seems old hull shapes (kind of classical boats on the superstructure) uses modern considerable draft keels with bulbs (for instance the classical Morris line). That improves stability (even initial one) in a much more considerable way than to simply change iron to lead.





Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-04-2011 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 03-04-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haffiman37 View Post
First of all there are no 'blue water boats' in my opinion.
Thanks for your reply. I'll have to disagree here, at least to the extent that there are definitely boats that are unsuitable for offshore or even boisterous inshore sailing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haffiman37 View Post
Fin keel, full keel, free hanging rudder, skegg hinged rudder, keel-hinged rudder they all works if designed and built correctly.
I agree with this. Having said that, there seems to be no denying the performance improvements that come with more modern shapes. There do appear to be some trade-offs for that performance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haffiman37 View Post
As for light wind sailing. that is a lot in the sails.
I just changed my old main and genua that have served me well 20.000 miles from Norway to Malaysia with a new set from UK Halsey, Batmain and Passagemaker, both Dacron.
From last year being 'a mile behind', I got 3 line honors in this years Langkawi regatta in winds more like a duck-fart!
That's precisely what I'm hoping to get a feel for. I've sailed/raced both old designs and new offshore, but the experiences were separated by enough years that I can't make a comparison.

Quote:
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It is the crew and captain that makes the boat, not the other way around.
No disagreement beyond my first comment, and I think the quality of the crew makes a big difference for both safety and speed.
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Basically new boats versus older ones have more beam. Beam is by far the most efficient way of increasing the boat initial stability, the one that is used to power the boat.
Thanks for your additional input. The designs I am looking at are comparable as far as beam is concerned. The differences compared to newer designs is a few percentage points at most. The keels are traditional, I would call them "long keels" since the forefoot is not dramatically cut back. Also, the overhangs are modest - shorter than typical CCA boats. The closest design that can be found online is Chuck Paine's ANNIE, but she's anywhere from 20%-30% smaller with respect to displacement although very close in the linear dimensions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Without changing the hull shape and keel you are limited to what you have said, lead instead of iron, carbon masts and good sails, but the results in speed would not be very noticeable. Probably you would notice more the difference at bigger angles of heel, that are not used for sail. I mean, you would get a boat that recovers faster from a knock down, but one that has only slighted improved its initial stability and as I have said, that's the one that is used to power the boat.
I had hoped the improved stability from the limited changes available would yield some benefit sooner than at large angles of heel. I do think even the incremental benefits are worth having. One concern is changing a design with good manners to one with a quick motion. I'm not quite sure how to test for that on paper. I can do the math for the other effects.

That Wally NANO is a very pretty boat! While I don't want to blend the modern and the classic in that way, there is no denying she is a beauty and I'm sure a very smart sailer. Thanks for the picture.
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  #58  
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BTB
Stability is initially form stability, which comes from beam and underbody shape. The ballast needs a lever arm to be effective. In other words the boat has to heel for it to work. Once at a given angle of heel, say 15 to 20 degrees, the ballast will keep the boat from heeling much more in a steady breeze, allowing the boat to carry more sail area at that angle than the same hull form with less ballast and/or less deep ballast.
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  #59  
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BTB.

You took my first comment a bit too much by the letter.
Boats are in general designed for a certain use and limits. The CE certification lays that out quite clearly:

Category A: OCEAN – Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above, and vessels largely self sufficient
Category B: OFFSHORE – Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.
Category C: INSHORE – Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.
Category D: SHELTERED WATERS – Designed for voyages on small lakes, rivers, and canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.5 m may be experienced.

That said, I will not call all boats in class 'A' for 'blue water boats'.Let us compare 2 boats, both in 'A', both rather similar in hull design and specs.
However by a closer look, a huge difference.
- Load capacity Jeanneau SO37: 2400Kg
- Load capacity Bavaria 37: 1200Kg.

This includes crew and whatever you add to the empty boat.
Fuel, water, crew, anchor/chain. food, life-raft, dinghy, outboard, ++++++
One of the main reasons I chose the Jeanneau!
There are a lot of other things to consider, the list is just too long to put here.
However I would not consider the SO37 being suitable for a trip in the North-West passage with ice etc, or a long up-wind beat crossing against the wind over the Atlantic. May probably be done, but there I might prefer a different design.
I however had a planned route mainly going down-wind!
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Old 03-04-2011
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I looked at this last week. It's a little rough but it's all there and cheap.

I'm told that the original owners converted this boat because they wanted something fast.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=77729&url=
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