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  #71  
Old 03-14-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I agree with most of what John Vigor said.

But " on corrected time" doesn't mean much as the fattest tub can come in last and still win "on corrected time" by beating her terrible rating by more than the others beat theirs.
Ah but Saraband was boat for boat the third boat to arrive, 45 boats started

History of the Pacific Cup | Pacific Cup

Quote:
Most entrants finished within three days of each other, and the first five boats overall represented all four crewed classes. In fact, the first three boats overall represented a complete range of sailboat types with first being an ultralight, second a medium displacement racer-cruiser, and third a heavy displacement cruiser. The first three boats overall in order of finish were Oaxaca (Santa Cruz 50), Heart of Gold (Schumacher 50) and Saraband (Westsail 32).

Last edited by GBurton; 03-14-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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  #72  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
An interesting take by John Vigor on full keeled boats and light wind:
John Vigor's Blog: The virtues of traditional keels
"A properly designed and constructed medium- or heavy-displacement cruiser is not the poor relative of the family, even in speed. As the renowned cruising designer Bill Crealock once told me: “A racing boat accelerates quicker, but there’s no reason why cruising hulls can’t be just as fast over long distances.”

He is talking about 1988. That's 23 years ago, an eternity in what concerns boat design evolution. I don't know if that was right in 1988 but I can tell you that today that statement does not make any sense. Compared with an old 40ft full keeler, even one that among its equals is a fast one, a 40class racer will make a Transat in almost half the time and that means almost double speed average. I have explained on a previous post why.


“In 1988,...The winner on corrected time was Saraband, a Westsail 32 that had sailed a consistent pace for 14 days, 17 hours elapsed time, an amazing feat in relatively light winds.”

Corrected time means that the westsail has a handicap..-and handicap means slow even when the boat wins.

To give you an example: Let's imagine a 100m race. Two racers, one a top athlete the other a guy without a leg and with crutches. Someone with responsibility for the attribution of fair handicaps on the sport establishes that the fair handicap for the guy with one leg to compete in equal terms with the athlete, for that distance is 25s. The athlete makes the race in 9.9s, the guy with one leg and crutches races in 36s and wins on compensated time.

Now one thing is saying that he won on compensated time another thing is saying that the guy with one leg and crutches is a fast runner

Regards

Paulo
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  #73  
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What about last year when the same boat beat a valiant 40, a fin keeler, amongst other fin keelers? (boat for boat)

Have you ever sailed aboard a Westsail 32?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
"A properly designed and constructed medium- or heavy-displacement cruiser is not the poor relative of the family, even in speed. As the renowned cruising designer Bill Crealock once told me: “A racing boat accelerates quicker, but there’s no reason why cruising hulls can’t be just as fast over long distances.”

He is talking about 1988. That's 23 years ago, an eternity in what concerns boat design evolution. I don't know if that was right in 1988 but I can tell you that today that statement does not make any sense. Compared with an old 40ft full keeler, even one that among its equals is a fast one, a 40class racer will make a Transat in almost half the time and that means almost double speed average. I have explained on a previous post why.


“In 1988,...The winner on corrected time was Saraband, a Westsail 32 that had sailed a consistent pace for 14 days, 17 hours elapsed time, an amazing feat in relatively light winds.”

Corrected time means that the westsail has a handicap..-and handicap means slow even when the boat wins.

To give you an example: Let's imagine a 100m race. Two racers, one a top athlete the other a guy without a leg and with crutches. Someone with responsibility for the attribution of fair handicaps on the sport establishes that the fair handicap for the guy with one leg to compete in equal terms with the athlete, for that distance is 25s. The athlete makes the race in 9.9s, the guy with one leg and crutches races in 36s and wins on compensated time.

Now one thing is saying that he won on compensated time another thing is saying that the guy with one leg and crutches is a fast runner

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by GBurton; 03-14-2011 at 12:55 PM.
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  #74  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
What about last year when the same boat beat a valiant 40, a fin keeler, amongst other fin keelers? (boat for boat)

Have you ever sailed aboard a Westsail 32?
A valiant 40 is a 30 year old design and a slow sailing boat.

Can you tell me of what you are talking about?

I cannot see any Westsail 32.

2010 Final Standings Page | Pacific Cup

But looking at the real time race you can see that a modern mini racer with only 22ft (raced by a woman) beat the two Cal 40 one by 2 days 4 hours, the other by 2 days 17 hours, beat a Pacific Seacraft 44 by 3 Days 6 hours and a Passport 40 by 4 days 11 hours. Now can you Imagine what would have done a 40 class racer that is similar to a mini racer but with 40ft instead of 22ft?

One of the modern racers there, a smaller one, a Farr 36, made it in 8 days and 13 hours. I guess that a 40class racer would make it in about 7 days, that is about half the time that it took to the cal 40, and I am pretty sure that a Cal 40 is way faster than a Westsail 32.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-14-2011 at 02:02 PM.
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  #75  
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Single handed Transpac... and we are talking about cruising boats.

The Westsail is a cruising boat, not a purpose built racer. My point in all of this is that many heavy full keeled boats perform better than internet message boards would have you believe. There seems to be much misinformation about how these boats sail and perform.
Another thing, if you want to get somewhere fast - get on a plane. You can get to Hawaii in half the time on a multi-million dollar sailboat compared to a Westsail 32, but it only takes 10 hours on a plane. Millions of dollars will get you 6 days...woopee



Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
A valiant 40 is a 30 year old design and a slow sailing boat.

Can you tell me of what you are talking about?

I cannot see any Westsail 32.

2010 Final Standings Page | Pacific Cup

But looking at the real time race you can see that a modern mini racer with only 22ft (raced by a woman) beat the two Cal 40 one by 2 days 4 hours, the other by 2 days 17 hours, beat a Pacific Seacraft 44 by 3 Days 6 hours and a Passport 40 by 4 days 11 hours. Now can you Imagine what would have done a 40 class racer that is similar to a mini racer but with 40ft instead of 22ft?

One of the modern racers there, a smaller one, a Farr 36, made it in 8 days and 13 hours. I guess that a 40class racer would make it in about 7 days, that is about half the time that it took to the cal 40, and I am pretty sure that a Cal 40 is way faster than a Westsail 32.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by GBurton; 03-14-2011 at 03:09 PM.
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  #76  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Ah but Saraband was boat for boat the third boat to arrive, 45 boats started

History of the Pacific Cup | Pacific Cup
Quote:
Most entrants finished within three days of each other, and the first five boats overall represented all four crewed classes. In fact, the first three boats overall represented a complete range of sailboat types with first being an ultralight, second a medium displacement racer-cruiser, and third a heavy displacement cruiser. The first three boats overall in order of finish were Oaxaca (Santa Cruz 50), Heart of Gold (Schumacher 50) and Saraband (Westsail 32).
You left out this part:

Quote:
The 1990 race had generally nice conditions except for light wind for the first few days. This race had a number of firsts, such as staggered starts over a four-day period and a record number of entries (peaked at 53 with 45 crossing the starting line).
Which means the Westsail 32 probably started 4 days ahead of the fastest boats.

It should be noted that the race goes from San Francisco to Hawaii, and is mostly downwind. So the poor windward performance of the Westsail 32 is minimized. Since the race is run using PHRF, which is based on a combination of upwind and downwind performance it is not surprising that it would do well corrected. And in 1988 it won on corrected time, but had the slowest elapsed time of all of the boats racing under PHRF.
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  #77  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
You left out this part:



Which means the Westsail 32 probably started 4 days ahead of the fastest boats.

It should be noted that the race goes from San Francisco to Hawaii, and is mostly downwind. So the poor windward performance of the Westsail 32 is minimized. Since the race is run using PHRF, which is based on a combination of upwind and downwind performance it is not surprising that it would do well corrected. And in 1988 it won on corrected time, but had the slowest elapsed time of all of the boats racing under PHRF.
Actually I think the Pacific cup uses a special rating (PCR) that allows for most of the race being off the wind. For the Transpac the Westsails rating was 199 (for instance)
Be that as it may, the race was won by the Westsail. This is a fact.
Another thing, how many races are there to windward?....and like I said before the Westsail is a cruising boat.
And your last sentence is false
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Actually I think the Pacific cup uses a special rating (PCR) that allows for most of the race being off the wind. For the Transpac the Westsails rating was 199 (for instance)
Be that as it may, the race was won by the Westsail. This is a fact.
Another thing, how many races are there to windward?....and like I said before the Westsail is a cruising boat.
And your last sentence is false
Download :

http://www.pacificcup.org/archive/pc...%20results.pdf

Please show me where I am wrong.
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  #79  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Single handed Transpac... and we are talking about cruising boats.

...
No, you have said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
An interesting take by John Vigor on full keeled boats and light wind:
John Vigor's Blog: The virtues of traditional keels
And on that take we can read something that makes no sense, at least today:

These people are misinformed.

A properly designed and constructed medium- or heavy-displacement cruiser is not the poor relative of the family, even in speed. As the renowned cruising designer Bill Crealock once told me: ďA racing boat accelerates quicker, but thereís no reason why cruising hulls canít be just as fast over long distances.Ē

He was right, of course, you only had to look at Sarabandís record for that to make sense. She was a flat-out cruiser, a deep heavy, tubby cruiser, a Westsail 32 in fact ó and she won the Pacific Cup race from San Francisco to Hawaii on corrected time.


He is comparing racing boats performance with heavy displacement full keeled boats. There is no possible comparison as I have showed to you. About half the speed is what race results show.

Regards

Paulo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
Download :

http://www.pacificcup.org/archive/pc...%20results.pdf

Please show me where I am wrong.
Well, you are right. the Westsail took 14 days 16 hours and 53s to make it and it was the slowest boat, but that was not a bad result for a Westsail 32 and that's why he won the race in compensated (a very handicapped boat).

But that was at almost 25 years ago. The Westsail is still the same slow boat but today's boats ( racers, cruiser racers and cruisers) are all much faster than 25 years old comparable boats and the difference, that was already considerable between a Westsail and a modern boat of that era, is huge if compared with a modern boat.

I don't have nothing against heavy full keeled boats (I have sailed one for many years) they have its charm and its pleasures but pretending they are fast or comparing them with performance cruisers makes no sense.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-14-2011 at 06:47 PM.
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