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  #1  
Old 09-14-2010
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C&C 99 motoring speed and a few others

Hello,

If you own or have sailed on c&c 99, can you please answer a few questions?

-How would you rate performance under power? What is the max speed you can obtain with the folding prop? What speed do you cruise at (assuming no wind)?

Would you say the boat is stiff or tender? At what wind speed do you put the first reef in (assuming a standard main and 140% or so genoa)?

Are you happy with your boat? And lastly, is there anything in particular to look at when you examine a used one?

Thanks,
Barry
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Old 09-15-2010
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Barry,

I have sailed quite a bit on my friends It is a tender ( as most C&Cs are0 racer first cruiser. They are light at less than 10,000 lbs and need to be reefed usually at 15 knotts. Under power expect about 6.8 at normal cruising. Large spade ruddser gives great control

There are many negatives about this if you are thinking about a used one.

First the rep of the company now. Second the sanwich core below the water line as well as the cvacum bagging build technique. Third an underpowered 15 hp Volvo saildrive. Hard to find parts for vs Yanmar and for me a scary engine configuration vs traditional. Semi open transome. The fit a finish below is no where close to the old C&C s like the one I own.

If you are not into racing I would not own this boat. As a proud C&C owner who has a good solid one from the older models I would not buy a new/ post 1999 one.

Baryy I would look at Sabres.



Dave
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Old 09-15-2010
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Barry, you might want to post the same question here:

Main index C&C 99 Owners Group

In the forum area, you'll find some pretty good posts relating to sail trim, wind ranges, etc... that'll give you a good idea of what you might be dealing with.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 09-15-2010 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 09-15-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Barry,

I have sailed quite a bit on my friends It is a tender ( as most C&Cs are0 racer first cruiser. They are light at less than 10,000 lbs and need to be reefed usually at 15 knotts. Under power expect about 6.8 at normal cruising. Large spade ruddser gives great control

There are many negatives about this if you are thinking about a used one.

First the rep of the company now. Second the sanwich core below the water line as well as the cvacum bagging build technique. Third an underpowered 15 hp Volvo saildrive. Hard to find parts for vs Yanmar and for me a scary engine configuration vs traditional. Semi open transome. The fit a finish below is no where close to the old C&C s like the one I own.

If you are not into racing I would not own this boat. As a proud C&C owner who has a good solid one from the older models I would not buy a new/ post 1999 one.

Baryy I would look at Sabres.



Dave
Interesting... I'm wondering what specifically is the problem with sandwich core below the waterline and vacuum bagging. This is standard for a very large percentage production racer/cruisers (even cruisers) built in the past 2 or 3 decades. It'd be very difficult to find a solid glass boat in a similar length to the 99 that sailed with anywhere near a phrf rating of 99-105 or so. Many if not most boats of this construction type are still on the water and sailed hard... I can't think of any exceptions in our local fleet of 93-99 rated boats. Semi open transom? I guess it's just what one gets used to. I've always thought of open transoms as the best and quickest cockpit drain. I suppose if one was concerned, you could stretch netting across for some added security. My heart agrees with the shaft vs. saildrive... that's a mighty big hole down there, and if the seal maintenance isn't kept up, yikes! But the brain says, many many boats that are raced and cruised these days use them without issue. I haven't sailed a 99, but I'm guessing like many lighter racer/cruisers, upwind in 15 kts TWS, you need active main trim. If you're cruising and don't want to deal with it, sure, put in a reef. Respectfully, it sounds like you prefer a cruiser/racer than a racer/cruiser... different horses for courses...
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Old 09-15-2010
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Barry, the 99 is a VERY different boat from your ODay! Epoxy hull, carbon fiber spar (at least on most), etc. Much more racer than cruiser. Never sailed one, but looked at a couple during my boat search over the last 2 years. I liked it, but found the head and aft cabin tight. I would think it would be a lot of fun to daysail and race, but a bit small for cruising with more than a couple with small childen.
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Old 09-15-2010
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owners group web site

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
Barry, you might want to post the same question here:

Main index C&C 99 Owners Group

In the forum area, you'll find some pretty good posts relating to sail trim, wind ranges, etc... that'll give you a good idea of what you might be dealing with.
Hi,

When I try to get to the forums, I get a message that the page does not exist. On the regular cnc site (C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center) I can't find anything specific to the 99.

Barry
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Old 09-15-2010
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Additional Info

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments.

After my last 'vacation' on my boat, I have come to the realization that my family is never going to love sailing like I do, and that they are not going to want to spend a week or so on the boat. Day sails yes, overnight or weekend yes, longer than that, most likely no.

If I'm going to have a boat that is mostly used for day sailing, I don't need a 35' or larger boat. And I would like a boat that has more sailing performance. My O'day sails OK, but not great. I think the shoal draft is the biggest reason (and a fixed 3 blade prop is not helping). Plus it's almost 25 years old. So I am thinking of getting a newer boat.

If I do get a new boat it must sail great. It must have enough space for 5 to spend a weekend of longer on. It must have cruising comforts like standing headroom, hot and cold pressure water, etc. And it must be available for under$100K.

I found this one less than 30 minutes from my house:

Long Island Yacht Sales (Bay Shore, NY)

I looked at it yesterday and it seems solid.

So I figured I would get some comments on it.

Epoxy hull seems like a good idea. Deep keel, low wetted surface should have great sailing performance. Open transom should allow me to get on board from my dingy without too much trouble. Decent interior.

Those are my thoughts anyway. Of course I still need to convince my wife that spending a whole lot of money on a toy is something we should do....

Barry
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Old 09-15-2010
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Barry,

THe issues with C&C's and Tartans seem to be on the larger hulls that have two halves put together. THe 99 does not have this issue. Also, an 02 seems to be about 3-5 yrs before some build quality issues at C&C with epoxy boats.

A thing to remember about a boat like this, is you do not "HAVE" to sail with a 140 all the time. if by yourself, a 110 may work fine in most conditions. Then have a 140 when you have 5-6 folks on board. I personally do not like the floorplan, ie a forward head on boats. so this one is not on my list to look at. Not sure how many are around, but Jeanneau Built a Sunfast 32 for a few years, which has a rear head. Then again, the 99 is a bit faster at around phrf of 100-105 IIRC vs the SF at 120. Not sure were a sabre falls in to this either. I'm sure a number of points slower.

A C&C 110 might be another option. about 35' or so, and they go back to 97 or 98, with some fiberglass versions with more room than a 99. I am recalling one in the great lakes for about $99K.

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Old 09-15-2010
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Lightbulb mostly agree, with a couple of counter points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
Interesting... I'm wondering what specifically is the problem with sandwich core below the waterline and vacuum bagging. This is standard for a very large percentage production racer/cruisers (even cruisers) built in the past 2 or 3 decades. It'd be very difficult to find a solid glass boat in a similar length to the 99 that sailed with anywhere near a phrf rating of 99-105 or so. Many if not most boats of this construction type are still on the water and sailed hard... I can't think of any exceptions in our local fleet of 93-99 rated boats. Semi open transom? I guess it's just what one gets used to. I've always thought of open transoms as the best and quickest cockpit drain. I suppose if one was concerned, you could stretch netting across for some added security. My heart agrees with the shaft vs. sail-drive... that's a mighty big hole down there, and if the seal maintenance isn't kept up, yikes! But the brain says, many many boats that are raced and cruised these days use them without issue. I haven't sailed a 99, but I'm guessing like many lighter racer/cruisers, upwind in 15 kts TWS, you need active main trim. If you're cruising and don't want to deal with it, sure, put in a reef. Respectfully, it sounds like you prefer a cruiser/racer than a racer/cruiser... different horses for courses...
One small caveat--- Never confuse sales success with good engineering or good production techniques for long term ownership.

Around here we have seen several cored hulls, mostly earlier J Boats (but not all...), with extensive water saturation in the bottom coring. The fix was very very very expensive.

As to judging speed (phrf for only one form of comparison) vs having or not having a fully-cored hull, I would note that my design races scratch with the cored Expresses in the SF Bay area -- all are rated 99 phrf. My Ericson-built Olson 34 is a solid layup hull.
We bought it because it was very fast, very easy to sail fast, and has a full-on cruising interior. (Some friends of ours just bought a Thomas/Tartan 35, with only slightly less interior and a 77 rating!)

There are choices out there... but you have to look around. New affordable performance cruisers have all but disappeared from the market. It's a shame.

Design and production execution are just as important as whether or not the hull is cored.
OTOH, you can most of the advertised benefits of coring if you buy a boat with coring only down to the DLW.

Shaft Drives: Ick.... I have personally seen Volvo S-drives in the yard where the lower drive unit was "swiss cheesed" by electrolysis. While I sail in fresh water now and keep my boat in a new marina with top notch shore power wiring, many other sailors do not have this advantage. We even have a current leakage checking program.

I would worry about the aluminum parts under water just as much as failure of the membrane.
Beyond the saving in building cost, the S-drive system passes along a lot of required maint. to the owner(s). If you explore the Volvo manual (and not to single them out, but I have read their on-line manuals) you find that the membrane replacement frequency is about 7 years. Many owners leave it in longer, and one could speculate that their lawyers made them say that. Still......
On many boats the engine may have to be moved some and the haul out cost will be high.
That's a lot of constant $$$ expenditure just to save some $ on shaft alignment.

Take your time, take lots of detailed notes, and as the Knight told Indy, "Choose Wisely."



edit: to answer the "speed under power" part of the post, it's a 32 footer with a long waterline. I would be surprised if it doesn't motor at 7 kts all day if need be. Type of prop less important than having the prop correctly matched to drive train. Folders are cheaper, though.
Best all 'round motoring and sailing would probably be with a feathering prop, especially in any kind of tight marina maneuvering situation.

Edit #2 (from the peanut gallery) If that design sails as well as everyone sez, and that's what they do say, I wonder why on earth it has thousands of $$ worth of wheel steering stuff when a simple tiller would do?
And, if you just want a fast race boat, scroll down a way in the list of boats at that brokerage and look at that S2 7.9 Grand Slam. I used to crew some on one and they are Fast.

Last edited by olson34; 09-15-2010 at 11:21 AM. Reason: details details...
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Old 09-15-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olson34 View Post
One small caveat--- Never confuse sales success with good engineering or good production techniques for long term ownership.

Around here we have seen several cored hulls, mostly earlier J Boats (but not all...), with extensive water saturation in the bottom coring. The fix was very very very expensive.

As to judging speed (phrf for only one form of comparison) vs having or not having a fully-cored hull, I would note that my design races scratch with the cored Expresses in the SF Bay area -- all are rated 99 phrf. My Ericson-built Olson 34 is a solid layup hull.
We bought it because it was very fast, very easy to sail fast, and has a full-on cruising interior. (Some friends of ours just bought a Thomas/Tartan 35, with only slightly less interior and a 77 rating!)

There are choices out there... but you have to look around. New affordable performance cruisers have all but disappeared from the market. It's a shame.

Design and production execution are just as important as whether or not the hull is cored.
OTOH, you can most of the advertised benefits of coring if you buy a boat with coring only down to the DLW.

Shaft Drives: Ick.... I have personally seen Volvo S-drives in the yard where the lower drive unit was "swiss cheesed" by electrolysis. While I sail in fresh water now and keep my boat in a new marina with top notch shore power wiring, many other sailors do not have this advantage. We even have a current leakage checking program.

I would worry about the aluminum parts under water just as much as failure of the membrane.
Beyond the saving in building cost, the S-drive system passes along a lot of required maint. to the owner(s). If you explore the Volvo manual (and not to single them out, but I have read their on-line manuals) you find that the membrane replacement frequency is about 7 years. Many owners leave it in longer, and one could speculate that their lawyers made them say that. Still......
On many boats the engine may have to be moved some and the haul out cost will be high.
That's a lot of constant $$$ expenditure just to save some $ on shaft alignment.

Take your time, take lots of detailed notes, and as the Knight told Indy, "Choose Wisely."



edit: to answer the "speed under power" part of the post, it's a 32 footer with a long waterline. I would be surprised if it doesn't motor at 7 kts all day if need be. Type of prop less important than having the prop correctly matched to drive train. Folders are cheaper, though.
Best all 'round motoring and sailing would probably be with a feathering prop, especially in any kind of tight marina maneuvering situation.

Edit #2 (from the peanut gallery) If that design sails as well as everyone sez, and that's what they do say, I wonder why on earth it has thousands of $$ worth of wheel steering stuff when a simple tiller would do?
And, if you just want a fast race boat, scroll down a way in the list of boats at that brokerage and look at that S2 7.9 Grand Slam. I used to crew some on one and they are Fast.

Great post! I knew about the J-boat issues, and agree that when looking at cored boats, maintenance and long term love is everything, but they (cored boats) certainly shouldn't be excluded from one's shopping list. We own an E-34 and haven't heard of any of the SC built boats (Alsberg Bros. Express, Santa Cruz, Olsons, Moores ) having hull core issues... and I'll be darned, I had no idea that the Erickson/O-34 was a solid glass hull. Learning new things is good! Just curious, and on a small hijack, what conditions do you find your boat excels compared to the E? There are a couple of O's in the local marina's, but none (nor any 99's) are out racing. And agreed, a wheel on a 30-34' racer/cruiser is a bit odd. Saildrives... yep, it's pretty tough to trust that a used boat has been properly maintained, and the cost of failure and electrolysis is sinking or repower/rebuild/new lower drive, but a survey will find this soon enough. And as you say, about the lack of performance cruisers, sad but true.... It's a shame. Again, thanks for the post!

Last edited by puddinlegs; 09-15-2010 at 01:51 PM.
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