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  #31  
Old 10-15-2010
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Part I


I think this will make for a good discussion and I encourage all IP, Sabre (and anyone else) to jump in. I will lay out what I like, what I don't like, and why. In general, I hesitate making statements against a particular boat because everyone gets so sensitive about it. And believe me, IP and Sabre owners, you don't put up with half as much crap as I do about boat choice!! Much of the time it is joking around stuff... but I am always talking about this.

Now, these are my opinions. My opinions are just that - my opinions. They are no more wrong or right than your opinions. As I said before, I will lay out why they are my opinions and what I look for and what I like and why. SO again, just don't get sensitive anyone. And chef2sail - you would never offend me and I think the world of you and your posts. That was got to be the nicest, "CD, I think you are full of crap" posts I have ever seen! I mean that as a sincere complement.

Just want to say one more time that I almost never do this because people get sooo sensitive about it and their boats. No one has as of yet, but please don’t get frustrated with me as I lay out why I feel the way I do.

SO here goes...

I stated above that the Sabre was a better boat than the Catalina and I stand by that. I also will stand by my feelings that it is little more than an expensive Catalina (IMHO) or Beneteau or Jeauneau. I have always felt that the Sabre was designed as a performance cruiser and they have done a very good job at it. I am fairly confident she would outrun my 400, assuming all things are equal. Sabre has built a reputation of building a fine yacht and they take a lot of pride in their work and their boats. If you have not done so, please go to Sabreyachts.com and follow their excellent website and videos on production. I wish they would have gone into more detail on why they have done some things they have done and philosophies (which we will get into here), but a good general overview none the less.

I am going to use Catalina as my example here, though I think it stands for Jeaunneau and Beneteau too... but I know that Catalinas better so will keep them as the boat I refer back to. But, with some exceptions, you can substitute bene and Jeauneau where ever I put Catalina.

I am not the expert here, so I will lay this out as I have understood it. There are a gazillion details that Jeff_H could lay out better than me because he enjoys boat construction details a lot more than I do. Instead, I focus on generalities.
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Last edited by Cruisingdad; 10-15-2010 at 12:27 PM.
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  #32  
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Part II

Sabre uses a vacuum bag/divincell construction for their boats.Why do they do this and is it better? Yes, it is a better manufacturing technique to a point because it allows them to produce the same stiffness and strength but with less weight. In performance cruising, weight is the key - or one of the critical keys. This process is a more expensive, more time consuming process that creates a lot more waste and is more involved. I cannot remember if their hulls are cored above the waterline (not the deck, the hull), but it seems that I remember that being the case. If they are cored, that is a huge negative for me on a cruising boat. Now Sabre can get away with this production technique because they make a lot fewer boats than Catalina and their customers will pay for that extra performance their boats will yield. If they built to the scale Catalina does, it would be a considerably more involved and expensive boat. I would almost argue that they cannot build to Catalinas numbers as there is too much waste and involvement to make that work at scale.

Catalina’s hulls are all hand laid glass. They are not cored at all. Like Sabre, Catalina does use a lot of E and S glass in critical areas. But the ending product is that the hull is a heavier, thicker hull (I have to assume). Why do I prefer this? I prefer a solid glass, relatively thick hull because sooner or later (or fairly frequently in my case), you are going to run aground, hit something, etc. For this reason I am totally against cored hulls for cruising and it is why I also prefer a thicker, solid glass hull (to a point). I want the bulk... not Tayana kind of bulk, but a medium compromise for me. This is my preference and others are fine to disagree.

As far as the displacement of the boats... I can tell you that a C400 is nowhere near 19500 lbs. I think I measured in at 22-24ish when I bought the boat and am now at 27,500. I would be very pleasantly surprised if my 400 was foot-foot lighter than a sabre. I think the 400 would be better served trying to shave off some weight... but I don't know where they are going to do it from as (you will shortly see) my preference would be for them to do some things like Sabre that would add weight.

Tankage. I think the Sabre is very low on tankage. My 400 comes with 44G of diesel and we can easily add another tank to almost double that (if any 400 owners want to discuss this with me, let me know though I talked about it in the last Mainsheet). I like the Sabre over an IP or Tayana because I really believe they will get sailed more and are a better performing boat, but in the end, you still have to charge your batteries, run your generator, and will end up doing a LOT of motoring. That is just life. And I have frustrations with the tankage I have right now... not to talk about what I would need to do to get the thing ready to cross the pond (Atlantic). The water tankage is the same between our boats and I find that to be something less of a factor because of watermakers. I will also say that we spent ten days in the Tortugas (Wife and two kids with me) and we actually came back with some water. That included showers sometimes twice a day... so I think the water tankage is adequate, especially if you add a watermaker.
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Last edited by Cruisingdad; 10-15-2010 at 12:27 PM.
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  #33  
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Part III

Rudder. I think the rudder on boat boats is exposed. On that I have to give the Tayana/IP's of the world a big plus.

Deck. Catalina cores their decks as I am certain Sabre does too. I am not sure about all the Sabre, but I will tell you that Catalina lays solid glass around all of the openings (Hatches, vents, etc) to prevent any future delamination (water seeping into the balsa). Anywhere and everywhere there is a deck breach, Catalina uses solid glass. I believe the new Sabres use a foam (Airex) core which is probably a superior coring and may again make for a lighter boat.

Hatches. Well, here comes a big positive and negative. I like a boat with a lot of hatches. I sail south and there are times when it does not get out of the 80's at its coldest at night. The 400 is loaded with hatches... much more than the 426. That makes the 400 a very light, airy boat and comfortable down below. The negatives of hatches is obvious. Though I have always wondered how many hatches have really been ripped off of boats and in what conditions?? Still, I like a lot of air.

Dorades. Here is a big plus for the Sabre and IP's, etc. I really, really like dorades. I am very likely going to install some on our 400. Why? Because when you are underway and it is hot (always for us), you are not leaving your hatches open unless it is very calm or you are motoring, or both. We have two hatches we can leave open on our boat and still sail, but we still take water into them periodically. Same with the portlights. So a boat with ventilation while underway is a much more comfortable boat. Even when it is cold, if you can ventilate the boat, you will reduce the moisture down below and make for an all out more comfortable ride. Catalina should incorporate this.

Portlights. I am a much bigger fan of the portlights of the Sabre. I assume they use Bomar? No matter, a SS hatch with screw down dogs is a far better hatch in my opinion and it looks better. Catalina does not do this because of cost. However, those can be changed out and we have had owners do that.

Hull-Deck Joint. Not all Catalinas are made the same. Not sure who knows this, but the C400, C470, and the new 445 all use a Internal Flange Hull-Deck Joint. None of the other Catalinas do. This is an expensive joint. Basically, you have two solid pieces of glass overlap each other and are chemically bonded. Then, they use the toe rail (these boats have aluminum toe rails) that are T-bolted through the flanges every inch or so along with the stanchions. The final product is a deck joint that is very solid (I am told more solid than the hull and deck around it) and is mechanically and chemically connected. I believe the Sabre uses the same hull-deck joint.
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  #34  
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Part IV

Rudder/Post - The new Sabres use a Carbon Fiber rudder post (much lighter) whereas Catalina uses solid stainless. I am not sold on that yet for that purpose but it does shave off more weight on the sabre. I would be surprised if the old sabres use Carbon fiber posts. I also would be surprised if their old boats use foam coring.

Interior/Finishout - Sabre. I strongly prefer teak (which is what Catalina uses), but the Sabre finishout is superior. They put in more cabinetry and take up the available space much better than the Catalinas do. This has long been one of my frustrations/complaints about Catalinas is that they don't put in enough cabinetry. I actually spoke to Warren at Catalina about that this morning and it is all about cost. I guess they figure that the cost factor would be better having the customer do it after market versus them raising it across the board for all boats of a model. I proposed him having an option for a 'cruising package' instead which took up more of the available space. Who knows?

Layout inside - This is all personal preference folks. This is very subjective to the person. But I will tell you what I like and why and that will be very different for everyone. So there is no right or wrong answer here. I would not buy a live aboard boat without a separate shower in its own stall. The spray goes everywhere and makes a mess. Plus, it is apt for mold if you cannot easily get to every available spot. I also do not like any wood or teak in my shower. It looks pretty but is apt to mold and is a maintenance frustration (my dad's T42 has lots of teak in the shower and he is always having to air it out). Next personal preference - The V berth is the most comfortable place to sleep in... but the hardest to get out of. I like a large bed that I can roll out of. Why? I get up in the night to pee or she does. I get up at night to check the anchor. I come to bed late after reading. Etc, etc... but the bottom line is that I want a berth that I can get in/out of that does not disturb my partner. Plus, it is a LOT more comfortable not having you feet up against the other person. That is why I do not like the Sabre arrangements that I have seen. On my 400, I have a full size (nearly king size) bed. I wish I had more head room, but it meets all of our personal requirements. I also have a separate shower stall and LOTS of fiberglass. I think it is a much better live aboard set up.

Component and accessibility - This is a big plus of the Catalina... and I would assume the Sabre has a similar motto - make everything capable of being removed. When they build these boats, they lay all the furniture and wiring runs in them while the top is off. You will see this in the pics. They do this because it makes production a lot faster and a lot less expensive (BTW, just a side note, but did you know that Valiant does NOT do that... they run most of their stuff afterwards to assure it will all be accessible... interesting side note on why you pay more for a Valiant). Anyways, everything on your boat will break one day and you need to be able to access it and replace it. Catalina has long done that. I simply do not know about the Sabres, but I would assume they have done the same. Also, Catalina lays a lot of wiring and plumbing runs that are easy to follow and pull more wiring through. This is especially important on boats with liners because that accessibility under that liner is difficult. So having a tube to pull all your wiring through is a positive.
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  #35  
Old 10-15-2010
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Part V

Tabbed Bulkheads - Sabres, hands down (at least I think they are tabbed). Catalina does not tab (glass the bulkheads to the hull/deck). However, I am unaware of a failure of a large Catalinas bulkhead. Just so you know (on the larger boats), Catalina glasses in a 'lip' and mechanically fastens their bulkheads with screws. I guess you could come back and glass them in, but again, I am unaware of a failure of a bulkhead on a large boat.

Sugar Scoop/Step Transom - This is a huge one for me. I would almost put it in the deal breaker. As a live aboard/cruisers, we are ALWAYS on the tender. We are always getting on/off. We are always swimming off the back. My dad has a canoe stern (Tayana Vancouver 42) and many other boats have swept back/standard sterns and I HATE getting on/off those boats. And I can only assume getting someone unconscious on board one of those boats in a sea would be a nightmare if not very difficult (and without some type of winching, impossible for many people). Not to mention, I personally feel that davits and/or an arch is a must for a cruiser and it has always looked awkward to me for the swept back or other boats without a sugar scoop putting them on. It totally screws up the lines. I believe the 426 offers a step transom which is at least some improvement, but many of their other boats (including an option on the 426 is I am not mistaken) do not have it at all. You are going to hate taking the dog to shore, having guests over, (getting the kids on for me), etc with that transom. I do. I have experience with both and would not trade the sugar scoop.


I am sure I will come up with a lot more things to discuss about the two boats. In the end, I believe Sabre makes a better boat. There are things they do that you simply cannot replace (hull material/mfg process - which is not necessarily a positive for me but makes a better performing boat), and there are things Sabre does which make it a better boat which can be changed (access through the liner on the Catalinas, add more cabinetry on the Catalinas, SS Portlights with Dogs, Dorades, etc). There are also things about the Catalina which make it a better choice for us that you cannot change on the Sabre - the sleeping arrangement, totally separated and enclosed shower stall, Sugar scoop stern. But I think Catalina (or Bene or Jeauneneau) has gotten an unfair reputation as a coastal cruiser and cheap boat. I wonder how many Sabres have crossed the Atlantic compared to Beneteaus? How many Sabres have circum'd compared to Benes? An interesting thought.

So that is why I have said that Sabres are, to me, an expensive Catalina. Their build quality and much of their hardware is better. Their hull manufacturing is potentially a better process (I have my concerns). It should be a faster boat. But there are many things they do which make their boats a more expensive boat which you can also do on a production boat. And depending on where you are going to take the boat, I am not convinced that the things which Sabre does to make their boat a 'better' boat will be a big positive.

These are my opinions and I welcome any criticism.

Brian
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  #36  
Old 10-15-2010
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Jesus Brian, that is quite a post

I don't know both boats to make a comment, except in what regards design. The Catalina hull seems to be a more modern one, at least on what concerns the stern. There are a thread that explains why modern boats have broader sterns and why they are a better option (and that does not mean necessarily beamier boats).

The Sabre hull design looks like a 15 or 20 year's old European design.

Comparing with Jeanneaus, Beneteaus and Bavarias, both has no, or very small bulbs while modern European boats have almost all its keel weight on a big bulb on the Keel bottom. For having the same righting moment of a bulbed keel in a keel without bulb a given boat has to have many more hundredths of Kgs to compensate. This results on an heavier boat needing a bigger Ballast/Displacement ratio for the same effect and in a slower boat.

Regards

Paulo
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In my visits to the Saber dealer in the marina i sail out of

They have two used 42s for sale at 250k each

Saber dumped the small lower cost models long ago the current stuff is only 4 boats ( Sabre Spirit (36'), 386, 426 & 456)

All of which have so much brightwork and white Awlgrip carbon parts there kind of scary to even sail on one for fear of dinging something because theres something to ding bow to stern
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Jesus Brian, that is quite a post

I don't know both boats to make a comment, except in what regards design. The Catalina hull seems to be a more modern one, at least on what concerns the stern. There are a thread that explains why modern boats have broader sterns and why they are a better option (and that does not mean necessarily beamier boats).

The Sabre hull design looks like a 15 or 20 year's old European design.

Comparing with Jeanneaus, Beneteaus and Bavarias, both has no, or very small bulbs while modern European boats have almost all its keel weight on a big bulb on the Keel bottom. For having the same righting moment of a bulbed keel in a keel without bulb a given boat has to have many more hundredths of Kgs to compensate. This results on an heavier boat needing a bigger Ballast/Displacement ratio for the same effect and in a slower boat.

Regards

Paulo
I think the new Sabre 423 is a pretty fast boat. Nice design, but not a really modern boat with plumb bow and removeable bowsprit, etc. I am not sure it is fractional.

This is a really cool boat. I am excited to see Catalina making some nice changes. WHatcha think?? Catalina 445 boat test and boat review

Fractional rig, removeable bowsprit, plumb bow, sa/D 16.7... I like it. It is also a break from Catalina tradition in that they cored the hull above the waterline and glassed in the stern/deck/hull versus that rediculous hull deck joint thing that Beneteau does. Looks a sweet ride.

Brian
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Wow.....don't really even know where to begin after you took all that time to write up quite an informative and enlightening post...or 5
That was such a great comparison of the two and I hope that anyone looking at either of these boats sees that. I read over it more than once, and I know you mentioned tankage was about the same, but Sabre had better storage, but it seems like in a lot of aspects the build quality, while you said is slightly higher on the Sabre, sounds very similar. So, I'm left wondering why people view the Sabre as a more competent boat to 'cross the pond with' as you phrased it, versus the Catalina? By people I am referring to what I have read in reviews posted on places like here and cruiser forum. Once again, I know you are busy and can't thank you enough for taking the time to do that, I am sure that there are a ton of people that will really get a lot out of your efforts, including myself!
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We saw the 445 in the Around Long Island race this year and it was and impressive boat and had the removeable bowsprit

It had about the best looking in mast mainsail i have seen and they looked comfy racing with all the dodger/bimini stuff up
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