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  #41  
Old 10-15-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdawg View Post
Cruisingdad- Thanks for your comments and for the record I wish I had of posted this last week because I was near ft myers looking at the IP35 on Saturday and would have really enjoyed chatting with you. If you don't mind, and you can feel free to privately reply, but I would like a little more input on your choice with the Catalina v Sabre in that you mentioned tankage and livability of the Sabres pushed you off as an option. I general hear IPs regarded, if for nothing else, as good on tankage and storage. When I looked at the Sabres I compared the IP35 LOA 38 with water 90/fuel 48 to the Sabre42 LOA 41.9 water 120/fuel 40, and it seemed that the larger Sabre came close to overcoming some of the tankage concerns of the smaller ones. You also mentioned that you had reservations about the livability of the Sabre and I would greatly appreciate why? Obviously this will be our home for quite some time!
You were correct, I don't have long distance cruising experience, and no offense taken, your thoughts are very helpful. I have mainly daysailing with a little coastal, and will help take an IP42 from Sarasota to the Bahamas in November. We were planning the first year in the Caribbean to get to know the boat and then the following year heading over in April and then back with ARC in November, winter in the islands and then back to the 'real world'. I guess a crossing has just been something we have both wanted to accomplish on our bucket list so to speak.
Once again, everyone has been incredibly helpful!
I like Catalinas for what they are but would not consider for a moment taking one across the Atlantic. They are a great value but they are coastal cruisers and are built much lighter than a Sabre. I wouldn't put it into the mix for what you are considering.
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  #42  
Old 10-15-2010
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I honestly don't see where a stock Sabre would go that my stock Catalina would not. But it is a faster boat. And though some of those hardware and cabinetry things I mentioned may seem tripe, they are in fact quite expeisive.

Money not an object and stuck with the choice of staying between Maine and Venezuela, and having to choose between a Sabre or a Catalina, I would choose the Sabre. I just don't see where the Sabre excells at anything. It's not extraordinarily fast like a Farr or X, it's not luxurious like a Taswell or Oyster, and its not cheap like a Bene or Catalina. They seem to do a lot of things good, but nothing exceptional. That does not mean that the boat you are looking at is not a good boat and I think you should give it serious interest. I mean that. I like it. Dollar for dollar, I would almost certainly choose it over a comparable production boat. THe question then comes into play: what is comparable?

I really would look into a Passport 40.

And again, these are my opinions. I am not the expert on any of this stuff. I am only giving you my opinions and why I like what I like and what I look for. What I like and what is good to me is not good for others so mileage will vary. For example, there is this dog I know that swears by multihulls... Not taste, I tell ya. No taste!! (that is sailingdog, btw!!!)

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  #43  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBinRI View Post
I like Catalinas for what they are but would not consider for a moment taking one across the Atlantic. They are a great value but they are coastal cruisers and are built much lighter than a Sabre. I wouldn't put it into the mix for what you are considering.
Depends on teh Catalina. And quite candidly, I wouldn't take a stock Sabre across the Atlantic either. My opinions.

And I need to be very clear about something - I am not suggesting the Catalina is as good the Sabre. I have said about twenty times it is not. What I am saying is that I don't see the sabre as soime exceptional offshore cruiser either. For the money, it would not be my first choice of boats to go across the Atlantic with. I am not even sure it would hit the top ten. Neither would a Catalina - though people have done it in both of them. And if you are not going to cross teh Atlantic then you would be perfectly fine with a production boat in the islandes. Heck - that's what they are made for.

I do not want anyone on here calling Sabre and telling them that CD is saying that a Catalina is as good as a sabre and all that. That is absolutely not true. I am simply trying to make a point and doing a poor job of it.

Brian
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  #44  
Old 10-15-2010
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Sabre

I enjoyed the posts on Sabre vs other boats. Lots of good information here.

There are certainly lots of cored hull boats that have made transoceanic offshore passages and I don't agree that solid glass hulls are the only choice here. Sabre does not promote its Stability Index much (as does Island Packet and others) but I exchanged some email a while back with Sabre hull designer Jim Taylor and convinced him to buy the software to do the STIX analysis on Sabre hulls. I'm looking at his email now and the STIX for the S-426 checks in at 43.4 well above the Island Packet 370 at 43 which is generally acknowledged as an offshore capable vessel. Euro rating of A ocean requires STIX of 32 as a minimum and is more achievable by productions builders, and STIX of 40 is more often regarded as bluewater suitable by many.

And US Sailing Stability Index for the Sabre 426 is above 123 which exceeds the 115 minimum allowed for entry in the Bermuda Race and which is also quite high for any production boat.

The Sabre 426 also offers as do many Sabres, a sacrificial rudder that is designed to shear off on serious impact leaving about 50% left to get the boat home. And the flexible carbon fibre bearings which are the only carbon fiber you'll find on a production Sabre, are designed so that the rudder (or at least what's left of it) will be able to be turned with autopilot or emergency tiller steering. Otherwise the bearing can be jammed on impact and rendered inoperative.

When it comes to pure boat handling it is hard to get the responsiveness of a spade elliptical rudder.

A while back I was discussing the Catalina 42 and the Sabre 426 with another yacht broker. Although we both agree that the Catalina 42 is one of the best value sail boats ever built, he was wrestling with how any one would buy a Sabre 426 for upwards of $450K vs a Catalina 42 at 250K or so. He said the Catalina 42 had more room and storage and gave a great ride with lots of great features and that the Sabre was off the charts with respect to price.

I told him he's right but he's missed the point. The question is not why Sabre is so much more than a Catalina, but rather how can Sabre give you 80% the boat you can get from a Morris 42 for half the price. That is closer to the standard Sabre is building to.

Although you may not choose a Sabre if all you were doing is trans oceanic crossings, you certainly would have a boat that is fully capable of making those crossings, and when you are gunkholing in the Bahamas and sailing around the bays, you will be doing so in a perfectly capable high performance cruiser that will outsail just about anything out there except for a J boat and then you won't need 8 guys on the rail instead of your wife reading a book in the cockpit.

And I saw the comment about impact collisions with a cored hull. Yes they can be repaired (nothing you cannot do on a boat when time and money are involved) but one of the often overlooked issues is the hull construction itself. Most productions boats, Catalina, Hunter, IP, Bene, Jenneau etc all use a pan or grid system that bonds the hull to the grid thus giving structural stability to the hull. On impact from a submerged object, it is possible that the impact will cause the grid adhesive bond to separate from the hull thus compromising the strength of the vessel. A boat built like Morris, Sabre or others that do not use structural pans will more likely flex and the overall bonds of the bulkheads which are glassed into the hull will not compromise the vessel. This construction is labor intensive and that is why most production builders have moved away from it. It is also a lighter and possibly a stronger method but the cost is prohibitive for all but the smaller builders who build to custom or near custom standards.

I ran a Sabre 426 for about 45 minutes off FL's west coast with autopilot on a broad reach and the gps didn't vary from 11.2-11.6 knots the whole time while eating apples and sandwiches in 30 knots of wind.

Nice boats. Full disclosure. I own the last Sabre 34 the factory built, #430, I started the Florida Sabre Sailboat Owners' Association and am a self confessed Sabre nut. I'm heading out now for a Friday afternoon sail on Windswept! Cheers.
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  #45  
Old 10-15-2010
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CD—

Lots of bluewater passage making multihulls and monohulls have cored hulls. Properly maintained and designed, there's nothing wrong with one, and a properly designed and built cored hull can be far stronger, lighter and safer than a solid fiberglass hull.
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  #46  
Old 10-15-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanGSYS View Post
...A while back I was discussing the Catalina 42 and the Sabre 426 with another yacht broker. Although we both agree that the Catalina 42 is one of the best value sail boats ever built...
You know, that's an interesting observations about the C42. Anytime I've crawled around on one, I've been pretty darn impressed with the amount of boat you get for the money.

I would like to see dual wheels to improve access through/to the swim scoop. Aside from that -- there's not much to find fault with, for coastal sailing anyway.

I don't like the AVS of 114 degrees for serious off-shore work, though. And I'd like to see an intermediate draft/keel option verse the two extremes. A bulbed fin in the <= 6' range would be nice.

A lot of boat for the money.
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  #47  
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Hey, I will respond in a bit.....
Kinda glad you didn't plan to respond a LOT!!
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  #48  
Old 10-15-2010
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Brian-
"Sabre uses a vacuum bag/divincell construction for their boats." That must be "the New Sabre" you're talking about, not the vat bulk of boats built by the original company. There was a bankruptcy and total re-organization some 5-10 years ago, wasn't it?
The first time I was on a Sabre 36 (the old Sabre company!) what somehow struck me louder than anything else was the dust-bin recessed into the cabin sole at the foot of the companionway. Simple, elegant, thoughtful...When I see something like that (and the curved/angled companionway stairs that Bene has been using for so long) it says to me that someone has spent a lot of time looking at the little things--and probably paid more attention to detail than most.

Then there's the layout in the "old" Sabre 38...with an aft head that makes a great wet locker, and IIRC an athwartships toilet. Even better than a dust bin. (G)

So the new Sabre is using CF rudder posts, following Bene's footsteps? I like the concept, I just keep thinking of that Airbus that crashed on takeoff from JFK after a carbon-fiber tail assembly broke off. I just hope those rudder stocks are being massively overbuilt.
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I love my Catalina also, but I'm willing to bet a crisp $10 bill that a 42' Sabre will "feel" much more comfortable when things get rough than a 40 or 42 foot Catalina and there is no question I'd choose the Sabre if I had to cross an ocean and could only choose an IP, Sabre or one of the big 3 production boats.

Look at things like the chainplates (Saber's will be massive compared to the Catalina), through hulls, (Sabres will be bronze), and bigger things like tabbed interior construction on the Sabre (no squeaking when beating to weather). The "dated" hull form of the Sabre is far better suited to offshore work than a beamy open cockpit designed for coastal cruising.

If the agenda were costal cruising, the argument for the Sabre becomes more about preferences and the Catalina's value proposition becomes much more of a factor.
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  #50  
Old 10-15-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanGSYS View Post
… Sabre does not promote its Stability Index much (as does Island Packet and others) but I exchanged some email a while back with Sabre hull designer Jim Taylor and convinced him to buy the software to do the STIX analysis on Sabre hulls. I'm looking at his email now and the STIX for the S-426 checks in at 43.4 well above the Island Packet 370 at 43 which is generally acknowledged as an offshore capable vessel.

Euro rating of A ocean requires STIX of 32 as a minimum and is more achievable by productions builders, and STIX of 40 is more often regarded as bluewater suitable by many.

And US Sailing Stability Index for the Sabre 426 is above 123 which exceeds the 115 minimum allowed for entry in the Bermuda Race and which is also quite high for any production boat….
.
STIX is not very good to compare stability of two different sized boats. One of the main factors in the STIX formula is the length of the boat, so bigger boats will tend to have always a better STIX.

Many European production boats with around 40ft and some with less have a STIX over 40:

Southerly 110 – STIX 55; Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 43 – STIX 44;
Swan 44 – STIX 57; Benetau 393 – STIX 43; Najad 380 – STIX 43; Regina 35 – STIX 43; Elan 37 – STIX 40; Dehler 39 – STIX 42; Benetau First 44.7 – STIX 46.

I don’t post more because most of the designers find it a not very useful tool to access boat stability and they don’t publicize it. So I would not give STIX number too much value. It tends to favor some boats in detriment of others without any reason connected with the boat real seaworthiness and stability.

It was popular in Europe on the first years till it was clear that it not a very good measure of boat stability.

A stability curve will give you more information about the boat static stability and some other indicators will give good clues about the dynamic, stability being freeboard one of the more important (a big freeboard is bad for dynamic stability).

About what you call US sailing stability index I am a bit at loss with it. I can see that it relays heavily on the boat LPS, but I don’t know what it means MB and DSPM (displacement?) to find the CI or LSMO for finding the SI. Does anybody know?

http://www.offshorerace.org/images/pdf's/Part%20Two.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanGSYS View Post
… Most productions boats, Catalina, Hunter, IP, Bene, Jenneau etc all use a pan or grid system that bonds the hull to the grid thus giving structural stability to the hull. On impact from a submerged object, it is possible that the impact will cause the grid adhesive bond to separate from the hull thus compromising the strength of the vessel. A boat built like Morris, Sabre or others that do not use structural pans will more likely flex and the overall bonds of the bulkheads which are glassed into the hull will not compromise the vessel. …
...
Those grid systems are not bonded to the hull, but fiberglassed to it till they become a part of the boat. I cannot see how they would become lose (if the boat is properly made).

Far more important is a lead keel and a steel grid (ideally stainless steel) fiberglassed to the hull, not because the other kind of grids don’t work perfectly but because the problem is not on the distribution of the forces or its fixation to the hull, but on the link between the Keel bolts and the fiberglass (cutting force). If the steel bolt keels are fixed to a strong steel grid, that fixation is incomparably stronger.

There are several top range boats that use this system.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-15-2010 at 07:32 PM.
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