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Sabre 42- comments appreciated vs IP

26K views 76 replies 24 participants last post by  deagle12 
#1 ·
I have been narrowing down to IP35 and 38s, we are a couple heading out for two years to the Caribbean and the second year across the Atlantic and back with the ARC. I went on my brokers Sabre 34 Sunday and liked the build quality. I happened to see a Sabre 42 for sale in the same price range as the IP 35 and 38s I've seen. The Sabre is the shallow draft edition and the space and layout seem very comparable to the IP38. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on comparing these boats or just general thoughts on the Sabre 42. I believe the Sabre may sail a little better in lighter winds and the 42 looks like it is big enough to get over some of the light tankage issues of smaller Sabres. Thanks for your thoughts!
 
#2 ·
Its like comparing the tortoise to the hare.

Sabre build quality is traditionally excellant. True American sucess story. IP are also built well....like tanks.

IP- Full keel...stable, protected rudder, Good tankage, slow performer to windward

Sabre- Performance sailbaot
 
#3 ·
build and repair quality are great in the Sabre, but I am partial - owned a 38 for a few years. Sabre boats sail extremely well, are easy to sail and can be rigged for shorthanded sailing.

IP's were a bit pricey compared to the competition when I looked closely at them in early 2000, but well built and seemed to have been designed with maintenance in mind. Good tankage and as Chef says built like tanks. Although I don't like the "off white" color...many do. My slipmate loves his 38, and doesn't need to leave the cockpit to sail. Well built boats.

Either would be great,
 
#4 ·
...I believe the Sabre may sail a little better in lighter winds...
Now that is an understatement!! I think you'd find that the Sabre can sail MUCH better in light winds.

Whether it will when fully laden for a multi-year sabbatical, is another story. Some of that advantage will probably be lost when the Sabre gets heavily loaded.

As said, both boats have strong reputations. There are also some strong opinions about whether those reputations are deserved, particularly when it comes to I.P. You tend to hear a lot of negative feedback about them, from people who feel they can't sail for beans. But plenty of owners have defended their sailing ability, and there's no question that they have taken their owners far and wide in comfort.

One thing that would concern me a bit about that Sabre, is the spade rudder combined with the shallow draft keel. Speaking personally, that is not my ideal combination for ocean voyaging. But some would say that the I.P. keel/rudder combo is not much better. (I.P.'s rudder configuration is essentially a spade rudder connected to the full keel by a metal plate.)

That is a wonderful trip you're planning. Have you looked at any other boats beyond I.P. and Sabre?

P.S. Welcome to Sailnet!:) :)
 
#5 ·
Thank you for all the great comments, I never expected such quick and well thought out replies! I will be leaving in February and so my search admittedly was a little limited as I don't have a lot of experience in this size of boat. I know that ideally one would take a year or two looking and narrowing down, but with my schedule, that is not really a possibility. We have a couple years to get out and do it before needing to be back. A friend has an IP42 and used to have a 38, that is where I started looking and though there are plenty of comments on their lack of 'speedy' sailing, I do like the fact that they are generally considered very safe, as 'chef2sail' said, tank-like. We are on a long cruise, so comfort and safety are top of the list, but it would be nice to get some speed as well. I sailed an IP35 this weekend and it certainly was a stable and solid boat, but it was a very light wind day and I can see where the comments about light-wind motoring come from, but like I said, definitely impressed with the quality of the boat. On Sunday I got on the Sabre and really enjoyed that as well, but that was a 34, and I'm sure quite a different boat than the 42 I saw online. The closest Sabre is a good 10 hour drive away, which is why getting some opinions is so helpful at this point.
I've tried to do a good bit of research online, and have read tons of advice on boats at certain price boats, but when I pull up the specs, many are not under 6' drafts and I am looking for a boat without a canoe stern, which knocks out a lot of the often-touted boats like the Valiant. Undeniably a great boat, and one of the most proven blue-water boats ever, just everyone has their opinions on visual appeal. I'm trying to stay around the 120k mark with another 20k for refits before going. If I can get it for less, even better. :)
Like I said, I think that ideally one would have more time to narrow things down, but with my situation I have tried to pick some boats that have a good reputation and also a fair number of examples that are for sale in that general price point. Again, thank you all for your thoughts, they are all very helpful!
 
#6 · (Edited)
....
I've tried to do a good bit of research online, and have read tons of advice on boats at certain price boats, but when I pull up the specs, many are not under 6' drafts and I am looking for a boat without a canoe stern, which knocks out a lot of the often-touted boats like the Valiant. Undeniably a great boat, and one of the most proven blue-water boats ever, just everyone has their opinions on visual appeal. I'm trying to stay around the 120k mark with another 20k for refits before going. If I can get it for less, even better. :)...
Okay, that helps some. I see you are on a bit of a timeline -- sounds like you are heading out next year?

It would be pretty easy to find a boat without a canoe stern -- since those are generally more the exception than the norm. Perry and Crealock drew most of them, but there are some others too like those designed by Gillmer and offered by Southern Cross.

I am curious about the < 6' draft requirement. Is it hard and fast, i.e. do you have a specific destination that is constrained by depth, or is your homeport shallow? A limitation of 6' draft won't hamper you too much in the 30-40+' range, but as the boats get longer/larger their performance will be increasingly hampered by shoal draft limitations. A lot of 40 footers come out a bit over 6' draft, so you lose a big swath of candidates when you have a hard cut-off like that.

Also, how many crew will be aboard? Is this a family sabbatical, or a just a couple? I ask, because with your budget and the size range of boat you are looking at, you will be restricted to some older boats. Whereas, if you do not truly need the space of a 40-footer, you could look at some mid-30-footers and come out with a newer boat. Smaller will be less costly to equip and re-fit, too.

Anyway, we have some lists running around here where folks have recommended boats for bluewater sailing, and also for bluewater sailing at a price point. I'll try to dig some up and post links here for you. I guess my point is there are lots of options out there besides Sabre and I.P. If you have alittle time it may be worth it to consider some other possibilities.

The perfect $100k circumnavigator

Dreaming of Bluewater

Offshore Cruising Boat List
 
#10 ·
JohnRPollard- yes, planning on heading out in February 2011, just the two of us. The under 6 feet is based on where I will be keeping it in Florida and also for the Bahamas. I started out in the mid thirties with the IP 35 and 38, then when I saw that Sabre 42, and even the 38, I just think they are beautiful boats and everyone seems to hold their sailing ability in high regard. I appreciate you posting those links and I've read through them all. I have read quite a few of your posts on here, and if there are any particular suggestions, I'd certainly research them. I know it can get a bit old having people constantly post these sorts of questions on here, but hopefully after I'm through this process I'll have a chance to contribute back down the line. :) I am trying to narrow down to just a few manufacturers and boats to keep from getting overwhelmed in the search, and since I will probably be looking to sell it in about 3 years when I return, getting a boat with a good reputation and resale potential is part of the equation. I've probably gone through that Mahina list about 50 times and done searches on yachtworld for all different makes on that list, but often feel like I'm searching in the dark. Being in Atlanta, Ga. there aren't exactly a lot of boats nearby, so every time we take a quick trip on our weekends to check a few out it's 700 bucks on airfare and hotels. That's another reason why we are trying to narrow down to a few boats so that we can go see one, and at least have a feel for them without making 20 trips to see all different styles of boats. Hope this post wasn't too long and thank you again.
Thanks for all the comments on the calibers as well, much appreciated.
 
#11 ·
Lawdawg,

I think we're beginning to get a much better idea of where you are in your search. When you first posted, I got the impression you were just starting out. And, the Sabre vs. I.P comparison suggested you were pretty far apart in what you thought you might want.

Now it seems more like you are fairly set on the I.P., but just wanted to do a sanity check after seeing a few Sabres. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you weren't planning to join the ARC for an Atlantic crossing, I'd lean toward the Sabre. Others might disagree.

You could do far worse than an I.P. for the kind of sailing you plan. It's a safe bet, proven platform, with generally good resale value too. If you can stand one more thread, here's one specifically about Island PAckets. We had a lot of good input from several I.P. owners in that one.

At some point, you DO have to narrow down the options and start looking at individual boats. Especially on your short timetable, and given that you have to fly around to see them. So it sounds like you've got a good plan going.

My final bit of advice is to keep an open mind as you go around looking -- you never know what might be just a few slips down from an I.P. or Sabre.
 
#12 ·
JohnRPolland,
I went down last weekend to look at a specific IP35. I understood that they weren't the best light air sailors, but a lot of comfort, quality and liveability with great factory and customer support. I thought the boat lived up to all my expectations in those areas. One thing I truly didn't like was the rack-and-pinion steering with the rod through the knees and the 'tiny' wheel. But, I could see where it gets its reputation, it just felt really solid, part of that probably due to the full keel and wide beam.
I also looked at and crossed off Endeavor 42 and a few others. Then I went out on a Sabre 35 and really liked the cockpit and I had heard about their quality. When I looked up the Sabre 38 and 42 on yachtworld part of me just thought....Wow, that is a gorgeous boat, and silly as it may sound, I really like the cockpit with the large wheel and pedestal. With the added length they even overcome some of my tankage concerns with the Sabre 35 size.
Yes, I could be very happy with an IP and may end up that route, but before I do I'm going to spend some time and go see some of the Sabres. There are little touches on both of them, like the fold up salon table to maximize room that I like as well.
As I said before, I have read a lot of your posts, and if there are a few boats you think I should short-list I would certainly appreciate it.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Older IP's

The older IP's had the steering wheel with the bar between the knees. That slowly went away with the newer models. If your interested in the IP 35 or IP 38 check out the IP 37. Basically a newer 38 with some improvements and minus the between the knees steering. IP model numbers take a bit to figure out. They have a great website IPY.com where you can look at all the past n present models complete with layouts and the like. Yachtworld.com is also a great place to look at pics and specs. Window shopping at its best. Also feel free to call IP any time if you have a question. You won't find a friendlier bunch. If your gonna cruise remember the ship you choose is also your home. I have a IP 32 and although I won't win any races when the wind howls I feel comfy and safe. If your interested in IP's I bet any owner you bump into would be happy to take you out or show you their ship. Its just that way with IP owners.
 
#15 ·
RickRv4,

Great input and resources, there.


lawdawg,

We'd love to hear how your search finally pans out. Keep us posted, and be sure to ask questions about any specific models (I.P.s, Sabres, ???) you zero in on, as we generally have at least a couple members who know any given boat fairly well.

Great trip you've got planned there, too. Best of luck.
 
#16 ·
I will be a little guarded in my comments, but here goes:

I live in SW Fl on our boat (wife, 2 kids, fat bulldog). The 6 foot draft is ok. There are many places you cannot go, but most of the time you can anchor a short way out and take your tender in. THat is always the most fun anyways. If you stick around 6, I would be surprised if you have many problems. And taht deeper draft will play in your favor when you get into the deeper water and are making longer runs (I believe they are more sure footed and point better).

Do not underestimate the importance of sailing well. You can't carry enough fuel to motor across the Atlantic. And better performing (sailing) boats have a huge safety aspect to them. Case in point might be when we came across the gulf. We got caught in a gale. I was hooking across at 8.5 - 9.5 kts. It minimized my exposure (and absolute discomfort). Now when the seas hit 10+ feet, I don't care what boat you are on, it gets uncomfortable with some baots worse than others. But if you are making best time across, you will be much happier. Plus, better sailing boats will use less fuel. You will be in light winds all the time (we are). Bobbing around at 3 knots stinks and you will get real tired of it real quick and turn on the iron ginny. There goes your fuel. Better sialing boats can get away with less fuel because they sail... a novel idea on a sailboat, I know.

I sail CIRCLES around IPs and Valiants - and my boat is grossly overloaded with everything from legos and books to a very large solar array. The wind has to really start blowing for the IP's of the world to catch up and when the wind is howling like that, you aren't going to want to go out in the first place because the seas stink. Now if you are in the middle of the ocean, you have no choice. I understand that. But all the better time to have a good performing boat that can make the most of the light wind days and have superior control when it is not so light (like being able to point and being sure footed).

I have (duck and cover) always felt that Sabres were over priced Catalinas and IP's were overpriced (and over hyped) tankers. For example, the PHRF on my C400 is 102. IP doesn't make a boat at any size that approaches that number that I am aware of! Not even their IP45 which is in the 126! In some respects, we hate racing against them because you can arrive at the finish line when they are still rounding the first mark, AND THEY STILL BEAT YOU!! Now the sabre has a better PHRF than we have. But the cost, lack of fuel, and general livability of them pushed me away as an option. Bottom line is I think they are overall a better boat than a Catalina (Jeff will break in and tell me about their expensive hull layup, etc), but are they THAT much of a better, comparably sized, Catalina? And the key negatives of taking a Catalina 400 across the pond (spade rudder, low tankage, wide open cockpit, open saloon, etc) are exactly the same issues you face with a Sabre.

So no one hate me, ok? THese are just my opinions. But if I was serious about his locations, I would seriously consider buying a Passport 40 (PHRF 138... which is a crock because I have seen them running faster than that) or if I could talk him out of actually sailing his boat across the pond (use dockwise to ship it), put him in a production boat which would be perfect for everything BUT crossing the pond (though we have Catalina that do it).

TO be clear on one other thing, I am not suggesting him buy a Catalina. I am not trying to tote the Catalina line. I am just pointing out some real negatives of the two boats he seems to be stuck on and trying to get him to consider other options, and why. Basically - don't underestimate the importance of performance.

And lawdawg, I am in Fort Myers Beach right now. If you are in that area too, we would be happy to meet you and your wife and show you around our boat and what works for us and what does not.

Brian
 
#17 ·
...

Do not underestimate the importance of sailing well. You can't carry enough fuel to motor across the Atlantic. And better performing (sailing) boats have a huge safety aspect to them. Case in point might be when we came across the gulf. We got caught in a gale. I was hooking across at 8.5 - 9.5 kts. It minimized my exposure (and absolute discomfort). Now when the seas hit 10+ feet, I don't care what boat you are on, it gets uncomfortable with some baots worse than others. But if you are making best time across, you will be much happier. Plus, better sailing boats will use less fuel. You will be in light winds all the time (we are). Bobbing around at 3 knots stinks and you will get real tired of it real quick and turn on the iron ginny. There goes your fuel. Better sialing boats can get away with less fuel because they sail... a novel idea on a sailboat, I know.

I sail CIRCLES around IPs and Valiants - and my boat is grossly overloaded with everything from legos and books to a very large solar array. The wind has to really start blowing for the IP's of the world to catch up and when the wind is howling like that, you aren't going to want to go out in the first place because the seas stink. Now if you are in the middle of the ocean, you have no choice. I understand that. But all the better time to have a good performing boat that can make the most of the light wind days and have superior control when it is not so light (like being able to point and being sure footed).

I have (duck and cover) always felt that Sabres were over priced Catalinas and IP's were overpriced (and over hyped) tankers. ...

Brian
I could not agree more. Brian, there is still hope for you, I mean that you'll come to sail on a really fast cruiser boat:D

No kidding, the Island Packet was my favorite boat. Really was I swear... but that was 30 years ago:D . Well I have changed as a sailor, but the IP has not changed that much.

On the ARC you will not be able to catch up with almost any-boat and will be left far behind. If you like to sail alone, that's fine, but then why do you want to make the ARC? You could go alone and save the inscription rates:)

Regards

Paulo
 
#18 ·
And you know Paulo, I still would look seriously into shipping the boat across via Dockwise. Sailing that boat across will be expeisive too. Assuming no catastrophic failures, you will still put incredible wear-tear on the boat and she will have to be very heavily outfitted with all kinds of safety gear, extra sails, extra fuel, etc that you might not put on it if you were 'coastal' (within a few days of land).

I also get the impression (maybe wrongly so) that the poster is not an accomplished long distance cruiser. And I mean this with no dissrespect, but that is a short time table to buy, prep, and learn your boat and do all of that. If you take the ARC out (or just sailing across the Atlantic), your option for boats now includes boats which I feel are much better suited for the bahamas and carribean (namely production boats like Bene, Jeau, and Catalina). The B40 is a nice performing boat and has a lot of hatches and light that you will come to appreciate as a live aboard. Remember, all cruisers are live aboards and we all (no matter what they say on the forum) want to be as comfortable as possible. You have to see this boat as your home, not a boat and not a weekender.

Anyways, don't listen to anything Paulo says. He will try and sell you an X yacht or Swan which he knows deep down in side is no where near as good or fast as a Catalina!! HEHE!
 
#20 ·
Cruisingdad- Thanks for your comments and for the record I wish I had of posted this last week because I was near ft myers looking at the IP35 on Saturday and would have really enjoyed chatting with you. If you don't mind, and you can feel free to privately reply, but I would like a little more input on your choice with the Catalina v Sabre in that you mentioned tankage and livability of the Sabres pushed you off as an option. I general hear IPs regarded, if for nothing else, as good on tankage and storage. When I looked at the Sabres I compared the IP35 LOA 38 with water 90/fuel 48 to the Sabre42 LOA 41.9 water 120/fuel 40, and it seemed that the larger Sabre came close to overcoming some of the tankage concerns of the smaller ones. You also mentioned that you had reservations about the livability of the Sabre and I would greatly appreciate why? Obviously this will be our home for quite some time!
You were correct, I don't have long distance cruising experience, and no offense taken, your thoughts are very helpful. I have mainly daysailing with a little coastal, and will help take an IP42 from Sarasota to the Bahamas in November. We were planning the first year in the Caribbean to get to know the boat and then the following year heading over in April and then back with ARC in November, winter in the islands and then back to the 'real world'. :) I guess a crossing has just been something we have both wanted to accomplish on our bucket list so to speak.
Once again, everyone has been incredibly helpful!
 
#21 ·
...) I guess a crossing has just been something we have both wanted to accomplish on our bucket list so to speak. ..
That's a great ambition. You'll probably come back in a few years after having crossed a couple times in your I.P., and give the rest of us an "education.":D

For my money, a newer I.P. 35 would be more desirable than an older I.P. 38. Assuming proper equipment and maintenance, I wouldn't hesitate to cross in a boat like that. Whereas, I'd want a much larger Sabre before I felt reasonably comfortable.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Most of the time I agree with CD. I do agree very much in the sailing characteristics of his post Sailing ability does matter a lot.

To say a 42 foot Sabre is an overpriced Catalina is quite a stretch though. Catalinas would like to be mentioned in the same line, but sorry afraid not. I have respected the Catalina brand and build line always thinking it as step better than the other production boats. Catalinas have good resale value compared to other production boats. They dont change designs every 3 years or model numbers. I like their design in many ways. I have done enough blue water sailing to recognize though that build quality of the hull, deck/ hull joint, bulkheads is important. I will let Jeff also talk about their hull laminating and fabrication comparisons. The cockpit is not at all similar. The Sabre is much smaller and less dangerous in a seaway. Less area to get pooped. Catlina is designed to cruise...mainly coastally. Sabres are that plus are a fast boat. Again no comparison except in very very light winds. Sabre with 100% fore triangle sports a robust 901 sqft while the Catalina is a respectable 808. Sabre displacement is 24,000 while the Catalina comes in at 19,700 which creates a disparaging difference in Displacement length ratio from 230 for the Sabre to 188 for the Catalina. While the Sabre is faster, it has the heft in the larger seas also.

As far as inside comfort, I see very few advantages that a Catalina has over a Sabre. Putting aside individual preferences one does not rise above the other. CD I respect your authority when it comes to the Catalinas, as you own one. Dont you also have some connection in your job with the Catalina Company? I do not say that to impugn your itegrity as I have always found you to be straightforward and honest and have enjoyed your posts and fairness as a moderator. I have to in this case part ways with you. Your analysis of Sabre is inaccurate. I hope some of the Sabre owers step forward and talk about their boats here as they know more about them then I do. If someone gave me a choice between a Sabre 42 or a Catlina 40 for the application lawdawg is stating here, I would not think twice all things being equal in the condition of the boats. Sabre hands down.

By the way I do agree with CD about the Passport. Robust...good living conditions....good tankage....very underestimated in the their speed
Dave
 
#23 ·
..Dont you also have some connection in your job with the Catalina Company?..
Dave,

I know CD well enough to know that he equally respects your input and would take no offense at your post or any differences of opinion.

But in case Brian/CD is absent for a while (as he sometimes is nowadays with being a full-time live-aboard), I just wanted to reply to the point about CD being employed by Catalina.

To the best of my knowledge, CD has no affiliation with Catalina other than being a loyal owner (he's on what, his 3rd or 4th Catalina?) and a Technical Editor for the C400 Association newsletter. That Tech Ed position is to the best of my knowledge a volunteer slot for the C400 Association. Probably pays about as well as these Sailnet moderator positions.:D

Unless CD chimes in and says otherwise, I wouldn't want anyone assuming he's on the Catalina corporate payroll.
 
#24 · (Edited)
John,

I do respect his opinions very much always have. Always will. As I do yours. As I said I was not trying to impugn CDs reputation at all, not my intent. I think he is somewhat proud (biased) as we all are about the boats we own. I knew he didnt work for Catalina as it would be hard for him to be a moderator here. He has always been fair and impartial and I enjoy reading him more than most of the others because he makes sense. He has strong feelings about his boat to the point he is the technical editor for the 400 catalina, and I think that is somewhat why he was/ is so passionate with his opinion. I love that he has involved his family in his passion and his dream. He truly is living his dreram. CD obviously should appear on Grill Masters on the Food Channel though.

People who boats for cruising with children may find features which are more important than a couple cruising.

I thought he was off base comparing Sabres and Catalinas, thats all. Now if CD wanted a true challenge with a Sabre he would challange the 42 to see which boat could "wear" the most grills. I think Catalinas would win hands down.

Brian no offense intended. You are one of my favorites here. BTW If you ever come up to the Chesapeake I sure a grill cookoff could be arranged between you, Shawn (T37chef), and I.
 
#25 ·
My money is on CD to blow up the most food... ;)
BTW If you ever come up to the Chesapeake I sure a grill cookoff could be arranged between you, Shawn (T37chef), and I.
 
#27 ·
Given his track record... blowing up just the grill would be a good thing for him.
 
#29 ·
Sorry for joining this so late. I'm on travel to the Channel Islands - 2200 miles from the Bay!

Obviously, I'm a huge fan of Sabres. Victoria is our second (we had a 28 for 17 years) and they are extremely well made are no better than an IP. Just different. For a really great summary, pick ip a copy of The World's Best Sailboats - Vol II. Both are profiled. I do my own work and know these boats intimately from bow to stern, so if you have any questions, please IM me. I'll can answer most questions is reasonable depth, having owned the brand since 1987.

42 foot Sabre is an overpriced Catalina
Clearly, the writer has not spent much time on a Sabre. Sorry if that insults, but my father owned 3 Catalinas (22, 27, 30) and I worked for two dealers so I know those boats quite well too. One is a coastal cruiser and the other is offshore capable. I like Catalina, but the statement is not at all accurate.
 
#30 ·
Hey, I will respond in a bit. First though, I have ZERO affiliation with Catalina other than being the tech editor for the 400s. That pays ZERO and is nothing but another freebie I do to help out the sailing community (and because no one else would do it).

I will get back wtih more commetns. The Sabre is a better boat... but many of the things I find undesirable in the Catalina for offshore work I also find undersirable in the Sabre. And there are things I actually find more desirable in the catalina that I don't in the sabre... but just hand tight. I realize that the sabre is a better built boat and jeff wil start in about the hull, etc. But my questin was whether it was that much of a better boat and if your intentions are to cross the pond, then is it the right boat at all? Not to say that a Sabre cannot and has not done it... but so has a Catalina(s). And if you are not buying to cross the pond, why bother with it at all?

And remember guys, these are my opinions and I will clearly lay out why they are my opinions and why I feel the way I do. But I also have kids and things that are important to me are not important to others. And I mentioned Catalina, but will also throw out Bene and Jeau as another option. But just hold on while I take care of a few things and don't label me a Sabre hater (snicker... that was a bit of a joke). As far as the IP... well, no comment.

Brian
 
#31 · (Edited)
Part I​

I think this will make for a good discussion and I encourage all IP, Sabre (and anyone else) to jump in. I will lay out what I like, what I don't like, and why. In general, I hesitate making statements against a particular boat because everyone gets so sensitive about it. And believe me, IP and Sabre owners, you don't put up with half as much crap as I do about boat choice!! Much of the time it is joking around stuff... but I am always talking about this.

Now, these are my opinions. My opinions are just that - my opinions. They are no more wrong or right than your opinions. As I said before, I will lay out why they are my opinions and what I look for and what I like and why. SO again, just don't get sensitive anyone. And chef2sail - you would never offend me and I think the world of you and your posts. That was got to be the nicest, "CD, I think you are full of crap" posts I have ever seen! I mean that as a sincere complement.

Just want to say one more time that I almost never do this because people get sooo sensitive about it and their boats. No one has as of yet, but please don't get frustrated with me as I lay out why I feel the way I do.

SO here goes...

I stated above that the Sabre was a better boat than the Catalina and I stand by that. I also will stand by my feelings that it is little more than an expensive Catalina (IMHO) or Beneteau or Jeauneau. I have always felt that the Sabre was designed as a performance cruiser and they have done a very good job at it. I am fairly confident she would outrun my 400, assuming all things are equal. Sabre has built a reputation of building a fine yacht and they take a lot of pride in their work and their boats. If you have not done so, please go to Sabreyachts.com and follow their excellent website and videos on production. I wish they would have gone into more detail on why they have done some things they have done and philosophies (which we will get into here), but a good general overview none the less.

I am going to use Catalina as my example here, though I think it stands for Jeaunneau and Beneteau too... but I know that Catalinas better so will keep them as the boat I refer back to. But, with some exceptions, you can substitute bene and Jeauneau where ever I put Catalina.

I am not the expert here, so I will lay this out as I have understood it. There are a gazillion details that Jeff_H could lay out better than me because he enjoys boat construction details a lot more than I do. Instead, I focus on generalities.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Part II​

Sabre uses a vacuum bag/divincell construction for their boats.Why do they do this and is it better? Yes, it is a better manufacturing technique to a point because it allows them to produce the same stiffness and strength but with less weight. In performance cruising, weight is the key - or one of the critical keys. This process is a more expensive, more time consuming process that creates a lot more waste and is more involved. I cannot remember if their hulls are cored above the waterline (not the deck, the hull), but it seems that I remember that being the case. If they are cored, that is a huge negative for me on a cruising boat. Now Sabre can get away with this production technique because they make a lot fewer boats than Catalina and their customers will pay for that extra performance their boats will yield. If they built to the scale Catalina does, it would be a considerably more involved and expensive boat. I would almost argue that they cannot build to Catalinas numbers as there is too much waste and involvement to make that work at scale.

Catalina's hulls are all hand laid glass. They are not cored at all. Like Sabre, Catalina does use a lot of E and S glass in critical areas. But the ending product is that the hull is a heavier, thicker hull (I have to assume). Why do I prefer this? I prefer a solid glass, relatively thick hull because sooner or later (or fairly frequently in my case), you are going to run aground, hit something, etc. For this reason I am totally against cored hulls for cruising and it is why I also prefer a thicker, solid glass hull (to a point). I want the bulk... not Tayana kind of bulk, but a medium compromise for me. This is my preference and others are fine to disagree.

As far as the displacement of the boats... I can tell you that a C400 is nowhere near 19500 lbs. I think I measured in at 22-24ish when I bought the boat and am now at 27,500. I would be very pleasantly surprised if my 400 was foot-foot lighter than a sabre. I think the 400 would be better served trying to shave off some weight... but I don't know where they are going to do it from as (you will shortly see) my preference would be for them to do some things like Sabre that would add weight.

Tankage. I think the Sabre is very low on tankage. My 400 comes with 44G of diesel and we can easily add another tank to almost double that (if any 400 owners want to discuss this with me, let me know though I talked about it in the last Mainsheet). I like the Sabre over an IP or Tayana because I really believe they will get sailed more and are a better performing boat, but in the end, you still have to charge your batteries, run your generator, and will end up doing a LOT of motoring. That is just life. And I have frustrations with the tankage I have right now... not to talk about what I would need to do to get the thing ready to cross the pond (Atlantic). The water tankage is the same between our boats and I find that to be something less of a factor because of watermakers. I will also say that we spent ten days in the Tortugas (Wife and two kids with me) and we actually came back with some water. That included showers sometimes twice a day... so I think the water tankage is adequate, especially if you add a watermaker.
 
#33 ·
Part III​

Rudder. I think the rudder on boat boats is exposed. On that I have to give the Tayana/IP's of the world a big plus.

Deck. Catalina cores their decks as I am certain Sabre does too. I am not sure about all the Sabre, but I will tell you that Catalina lays solid glass around all of the openings (Hatches, vents, etc) to prevent any future delamination (water seeping into the balsa). Anywhere and everywhere there is a deck breach, Catalina uses solid glass. I believe the new Sabres use a foam (Airex) core which is probably a superior coring and may again make for a lighter boat.

Hatches. Well, here comes a big positive and negative. I like a boat with a lot of hatches. I sail south and there are times when it does not get out of the 80's at its coldest at night. The 400 is loaded with hatches... much more than the 426. That makes the 400 a very light, airy boat and comfortable down below. The negatives of hatches is obvious. Though I have always wondered how many hatches have really been ripped off of boats and in what conditions?? Still, I like a lot of air.

Dorades. Here is a big plus for the Sabre and IP's, etc. I really, really like dorades. I am very likely going to install some on our 400. Why? Because when you are underway and it is hot (always for us), you are not leaving your hatches open unless it is very calm or you are motoring, or both. We have two hatches we can leave open on our boat and still sail, but we still take water into them periodically. Same with the portlights. So a boat with ventilation while underway is a much more comfortable boat. Even when it is cold, if you can ventilate the boat, you will reduce the moisture down below and make for an all out more comfortable ride. Catalina should incorporate this.

Portlights. I am a much bigger fan of the portlights of the Sabre. I assume they use Bomar? No matter, a SS hatch with screw down dogs is a far better hatch in my opinion and it looks better. Catalina does not do this because of cost. However, those can be changed out and we have had owners do that.

Hull-Deck Joint. Not all Catalinas are made the same. Not sure who knows this, but the C400, C470, and the new 445 all use a Internal Flange Hull-Deck Joint. None of the other Catalinas do. This is an expensive joint. Basically, you have two solid pieces of glass overlap each other and are chemically bonded. Then, they use the toe rail (these boats have aluminum toe rails) that are T-bolted through the flanges every inch or so along with the stanchions. The final product is a deck joint that is very solid (I am told more solid than the hull and deck around it) and is mechanically and chemically connected. I believe the Sabre uses the same hull-deck joint.
 
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