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-   -   European sailboats ( especially Contest, Sigma, Etap... ) (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/69232-european-sailboats-especially-contest-sigma-etap.html)

rcoles 10-20-2010 11:14 AM

European sailboats ( especially Contest, Sigma, Etap... )
 
I am still looking for my next partner... I am attracted by a Bristol 35.5 and a Contest 36. ( way more $ !)
I am a bit leary about the fluidity - or the easyness ) to resell a boat which is not very known in the USA. Contest is made in the Netherlands and its rep is in Vancouver. Etap was made in Belgium and is r3epresented in the North East.
So basically, Contest is not very well known. Does this present a handicap when I'll try to resell her in say 12 years? Then a Bristol would be more appropriate.
Thank you!
Note: I am still looking at a Ericson 38 and a First 37 and a CC Landfall...
Why did I sell my Carter ? :confused:

bobmcgov 10-20-2010 11:42 AM

The Contest line was built by Conyplex to typically stout Scandinavian guidelines. There are at least three 36' Contests by two different designers, and they vary by 60 points on the PHRF scale. The wing keel version is painfully slow and (one suspects) makes leeway like a haystack.

That's the impression I've gotten researching Contests: all their boats are well-found and comfortable in a seaway; but some sail moderately well, while others (like the Contest 31, SA/D=11) are out-and-out dogs. Woof. Moo. I'd want a sea trial in both light winds and 25 kts before buying one.

Soory to say, forget resale value. Obscure boats may suffer on resale, but they should (should!) also be cheaper when you buy one. Choose what you can afford to purchase and keep that makes you happy. When you sell it, take your beating like a man.:eek: :D Appreciation of your boat counts for more than depreciation.

Etaps are well-regarded, but that's all I know of them. Foam-cored and unsinkable, aren't they?

sailingdog 10-20-2010 11:53 AM

Technically, they are double-hulled and have a foam filled space between the two.
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmcgov (Post 656726)
Etaps are well-regarded, but that's all I know of them. Foam-cored and unsinkable, aren't they?


rcoles 10-20-2010 01:03 PM

Thanks! SA/D of the Bristol is 15.9 with 41% ballast/D
For the Contest, we get 16.9 with 42% Ballast/D
Of course, I can not compare lateral area / anti-drift area vs wl.
I really like the Contest, beautiful joinery... but very very pri$ey !

As a matter of comparaison, http://cruisingresources.com /Ericson_38_%281980_-_1990%29
must have made a blunt mistake for the E38! It seems they do not include ballast in their displacement! ( do they inflate it ?)

mitiempo 10-20-2010 01:57 PM

Here's a link to better numbers on the Ericson. ERICSON 38 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
And here is another link that might help. Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2000+ boats
And this link is for Yachtsnet UK, a brokerage that keeps all their pics and info in their archives here. Archive boat data from Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

I think the foam between the inner and outer hull of the Etap will absorb moisture and therefore weight over the years.

Contest is a solid well built boat - as posted some sail better than others.

Sadlers, designed by David Sadler (designer of Contessa 32) and Martin Sadler are well respected in the UK and good sailers all.

I don't think it makes much difference to resale - a well informed buyer will research the boat if less well known. And at the risk of ruffling feathers I think a lot of European boats are better built and designed than many North American built boats.

zz4gta 10-20-2010 03:22 PM

I've sailed on an ETAP 30 for a year and a half and we did quite well in our local fleet. Winning most races and the occasional 2nd and 3rd. I can't give you any feedback on the 38 though.

PCP 10-21-2010 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmcgov (Post 656726)
The Contest line was built by Conyplex to typically stout Scandinavian guidelines. There are at least three 36' Contests by two different designers, and they vary by 60 points on the PHRF scale. The wing keel version is painfully slow and (one suspects) makes leeway like a haystack.

That's the impression I've gotten researching Contests: all their boats are well-found and comfortable in a seaway; but some sail moderately well, while others (like the Contest 31, SA/D=11) are out-and-out dogs. Woof. Moo. I'd want a sea trial in both light winds and 25 kts before buying one.

Soory to say, forget resale value. Obscure boats may suffer on resale, but they should (should!) also be cheaper when you buy one. Choose what you can afford to purchase and keep that makes you happy. When you sell it, take your beating like a man.:eek: :D Appreciation of your boat counts for more than depreciation.
....

Contest have in Europe a very high resale value. It is not an obscure boat but one of the most well built and seaworty boat ever built. The company still exists (and that says a lot about the quality of their boats) and still makes beautiful and very expensive bluewater boats. This is a typical Dutch boat, that can be compared to Halberg Rassy, not in its design, but in its quality, and that is especially true with older boats. I think the new ones are even more expensive:)

Contest Yachts | Home

I think, without looking at anything, that older Contest are slightly faster than HR, but they would be considered slow boats by today's parameters. Older Contest were designed by Dick Zall, a very good Dutch designer. These boats, even with 36ft, are really bluewater boats. There are two 36ft, one that was built from 1974 to 1981 and other from 1984 to 1994. The first one is an old design, but the second one is a beautiful boat, designed already with the shape that would be a trademark for all Contests for almost 20 years. If you are talking about one of the last, than it is natural that the boat cost still good money:) . It is a very good boat, with a classical line;) .

http://www.contestyachts.com/media/938/contest-36s.pdf

Contest 36s | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

You have active British and Duch Contest Clubs owners:

Home

Contest Yacht Owners Club

You can ask them about that boat, I am sure they will be glad to help.

Regards

Paulo

Faster 10-21-2010 11:14 AM

Not sure about the US numbers, but importing a non North American built boat into Canada will cost an additional 9.5% duty. If you're buying new I suppose that's in the initial price.. if you're buying used and crossing the border then you'll get hit with the extra..

Nearly 10% could be what makes your decision, all other things being equal, between a foreign boat and a domestic one.

bobmcgov 10-22-2010 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCP (Post 657217)
Contest have in Europe a very high resale value. It is not an obscure boat but one of the most well built and seaworty boat ever built. The company still exists (and that says a lot about the quality of their boats) and still makes beautiful and very expensive bluewater boats. This is a typical Dutch boat, that can be compared to Halberg Rassy, not in its design, but in its quality, and that is especially true with older boats. I think the new ones are even more expensive:)

Contest Yachts | Home

I think, without looking at anything, that older Contest are slightly faster than HR, but they would be considered slow boats by today's parameters. Older Contest were designed by Dick Zall, a very good Dutch designer. These boats, even with 36ft, are really bluewater boats. There are two 36ft, one that was built from 1974 to 1981 and other from 1984 to 1994. The first one is an old design, but the second one is a beautiful boat, designed already with the shape that would be a trademark for all Contests for almost 20 years. If you are talking about one of the last, than it is natural that the boat cost still good money:) . It is a very good boat, with a classical line;) .

http://www.contestyachts.com/media/938/contest-36s.pdf

Contest 36s | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

You have active British and Duch Contest Clubs owners:

Home

Contest Yacht Owners Club

You can ask them about that boat, I am sure they will be glad to help.

Regards

Paulo

They are obscure in North America, particularly on the West Coast of the US. That is where the prospective buyer is, and where sale/resale price will be determined. RColes is knowledgeable about sailboats, yet he came here for opinions because Contests are not frequent on the docks. If he wants a fair resale price, he is welcome to sail his Contest to Europe to sell it, where the boat will be appreciated and fetch a higher price.

In the US, you either wait years for the rare buyer who knows and values the brand, or you accept a price discount. *shrug* How many Europeans really know Morris Yachts and would be willing to pay premium for them -- over and above a known European quantity like Bavaria?

Look, I'm a huge fan of Scandinavian boats little known in the US -- Albins are my favorites, along with Omega, Scanmar, Sweden Yachts, and English permutations of Nordic design like SHE and Sigma. And of course Contessa -- but Contessas were built in North America for a while, they are a famous name much written about by Americans (Kretschmer, Aebi), and everyone knows a Contessa 32 survived the '79 Fastnet when larger yachts did not. No one knows a SHE of similar size also finished that race in good form. So even in Europe, Contessas sell quicker & fetch higher prices than SHEs -- the Fame Premium. Here in the US, the Contessa 32 commonly sells for $35-40k USD; the similar Albin Ballad sells for under $12,000 -- commonly $8,000, and I tried to buy one in Seattle for $1000 USD, no kidding. This same boat has been listed at $48k in Denmark.

So don't get your back up, dude. "Obscure" is not an indictment of Conyplex or Contest or their yachts (tho their early product line was uneven and they did build some dogs), but rather a commentary on how ignorant we in the US are of many old, established, and well-regarded builders in other parts of the world. And how that affects sale and resale prices.

(And vice versa. I'm sure the worthies present could rattle off dozens of boutique North American sailboat marques that have been building top-notch craft for 100 years -- and you would never have heard of most.)

mitiempo 10-22-2010 11:06 AM

The prospective buyer's profile says he cruises Long Island. I think it is located on the East Coast.:)


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