Let's talk motorsailers/pilothouses

[PCP]

Yes, on this one I agree about the grab rails .

About this kind of rig and heavy weather, the classical solution (that all builders offer as an option) is a removable staysail. This way it's much easier to tack with the genoa (especially if you are alone) and if bad weather is on the way it is not difficult to mount the stay and put there a storm sail, if it is that bad.

Another option (more for coastal cruising with some offshore passages) is a thing called storm bag, a sail that is easily mounted over the Genoa and pulled by the spinnaker halyard.

Anyway, this kind of semi-custom boats can have, if you want it, a cutter rig, but as you know that will imply the use of runners and a more complicated to use rig and also a slightly slower boat.

Regards

Paulo

[Faster]

Great stuff, Paulo.. thanks again

Definitely a long way from "Motorsailer" with these two!....

[tdw]

Originally Posted by jrd22

Beautiful interior and it looks like the CR would have "adequate" visibility from inside for steering, hard to tell. I would much prefer the CR vs the Arcona just because of the shaft vs saildrive, but that's just me. In heavy weather with no staysail what is the preferred sail arrangement, reefed main alone? Or do you unfurl the genoa fully and drop and then raise a storm jib?

Still a glaring lack of grab rails, but I guess I could trade those for that aft room and the wine rack:-))

Now now JRD.....you are typing in 12 point sarcasm again.....

The Wombet and I were looking at a particular boat in Sydney recently and on first viewing W had that criticism as well , at least from the pics. Funnily enough though, when we went on board she actually had handholds a plenty and very intelligently placed. They were simply not obvious in the pics.

I think some of these beauties may well be the the same plus I figure that in most cases handholds are pretty easy things to add on.

Oh yes, and I'd think that on the Arcona at least a removeable inner forestay for a staysail would be the most likely option wouldn't it ?

Me, I have no serious beef with saildrives, properly maintained.

Paulo,

Re the CR aft cabin.....I'd love to see one of those things up close and personal. My preference would be to sleep the other way round and maybe there is enough space. I've only seen one of this kind of berth myself and that was on a Hunter from memory. I found it somewhat claustrophobic. The problem of 'room to move' also comes to mind. Even aging Wombats get a bit frisky every now and then.

Do you know when the Arcona DS was first produced ? She is very Dehlerish even underwater. The Dehler was last produced in 2004, I wonder whether Arcona saw a niche that needed filling but in the end the pricing killed it. It seems in reality that even in colder climates Deck Saloons and Pilot Houses inhabit a very limited sector.

I do like the CR, no doubt she is a lovely boat though for me she falls behind the Luffe/Arcona/Dehler as eye candy. Looking at the respective layouts and summing up how we exist on board those three still win out for me.

Out on the water, I'm guessing that the Luffe and the Dehler would be the simplest to sail particularly if both were fitted with self tacking headsails, I think that is an option on the Luffe and standard on the Dehler. I know that will not fit in with your racing ethic but I'd be happy enough.

[jrd22]

Sarcasm? Me, not a chance .
I suspect you're right Andrew, there simply must be handholds and grab rails. They are probably just cleverly hidden like the wine storage rack .

There are times (generally in the middle of a project that is taking 4 times longer than planned, recently it was resealing PH side windows) when I daydream about buying an almost new boat (especially with Paulo posting all these beautiful pics). But then I snap back into reality and remember just how lucky I am to have the boat I have now!

[bljones]

Originally Posted by PCP

A good point was brought up about visibility. Looking at the inside helm, how the hell does anybody under 7'3" see out while sitting? Is the seat telescopic? is there a periscope?

[bljones]

BTW, note the difference between Scandinavian publicity photos and American marketing pics- in the US the pics would be taken in full sun with palm trees in the background, a rugged 40-ish guy with good hair at the helm and a younger blonde in a bikini lounging with a drink. In Scandinavia they apparently pair prince Philip on the helm with the lead singer of ABBA riding shotgun on a gloomy fall day.

[jrd22]

Originally Posted by bljones

BTW, note the difference between Scandinavian publicity photos and American marketing pics- in the US the pics would be taken in full sun with palm trees in the background, a rugged 40-ish guy with good hair at the helm and a younger blonde in a bikini lounging with a drink. In Scandinavia they apparently pair prince Philip on the helm with the lead singer of ABBA riding shotgun on a gloomy fall day.

LOL, so true BL.
Regarding visibility, it's almost impossible to tell until you are actually aboard. Even if you are able to sight horizontally out the windscreen windows from the inside helm, in many boats you can't see over the bow very well, even with the top of your head plastered against the headliner, so you can't see the water ahead for about 1-200 yards (I like to be able to see what's in front of me, lot's of logs here). The two Sceptre's that I have been on were this way, although we were not underway so it may not be as limited as it seemed and I haven't heard that this is a problem with them. It's a compromise, the lower the top of the house, the better the visibility from the cockpit, but the inside helm suffers. At least the example above has engine guages and controls and a wheel so I would assume it is a true pilothouse with decent visibility.

[tdw]

Originally Posted by bljones

BTW, note the difference between Scandinavian publicity photos and American marketing pics- in the US the pics would be taken in full sun with palm trees in the background, a rugged 40-ish guy with good hair at the helm and a younger blonde in a bikini lounging with a drink. In Scandinavia they apparently pair prince Philip on the helm with the lead singer of ABBA riding shotgun on a gloomy fall day.

and it doesn't look like the lead singer of Abba has weathered the storm all that well.....

ref - visibility.......its all a matter of scale.....the Arcona only has 4'3" head room.....

Jonesy , the thought did cross my mind but I think it is looks worse than it is, camera angle and all that, but I seriously doubt a person of average height could see ahead while seated.

John D....yes you are lucky. but lets face it, even a new boat will need maintenance in a year or so.

Meant to say......The Dehler most definitely has bugger all visibility forward from inside. I spoke with one potential buyer and that was the reason they looked elsewhere. They were btw PNWers.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by tdw

...

Do you know when the Arcona DS was first produced ? She is very Dehlerish even underwater. The Dehler was last produced in 2004, I wonder whether Arcona saw a niche that needed filling but in the end the pricing killed it. It seems in reality that even in colder climates Deck Saloons and Pilot Houses inhabit a very limited sector.

...

Not really, but I have read a comparative test sail between the two boats in 2002 so I believe that they where new on the market around that time.

There is a very small market for DS in Europe, so small that Hanse, in 2002 tried to market an affordable DS, the 371DS and give up only one or two years later:

Hanse Yachts

To give you an idea, since 2002 I was trying to see the Dehler 41DS and asked to the factory where (in what European boat show) could I see the boat. I couldn't. The boat was still in production but they were not making any sales, so they were not interested in showing the boat.

The only ones that are making relatively small Deck-saloons or pilot-houses (with the exception of Southerly, that still makes a nice 35ft and a nicer 42ft) are Nordic countries and even on those it is a small market for very small companies. The bigger, like Halberg-Rassy, Najad, Malo, Arcona, X-yachts have not them in their line. I guess that Europeans find that sailing is to be made on the open, even in cold climates.

In Europe almost the only ones that are interested in Deck-saloons/pilot-houses are the ones that want to sail all year and travel extensively in all seasons (and not all of them) and that market is dominated mostly by aluminum boats, and there you will have mostly pilot houses and not really pilot houses in the American sense (a big house with very good visibility) but some limited vision forward (that will be a lot better while sailing) and a good lateral vision. This compromise had to do not only with the sailing performance of the boat but also with the fact that big lateral and mostly frontal almost vertical "glass surfaces" constitute a liability in a boat that is designed to travel with all kinds of weather.

The exception are the RM series (that I have posted in the "interesting sailboats" thread). They are just a bit more expensive than big production boats, and are that kind of European pilot-house boats. They are boats made to travel fast for a long time and are by far the most viable European solution for the ones that want that kind of boat. That shows in its sales and in their the growing production, as well as in the high price and difficulty in finding them on the used market.

Regards

Paulo

[Idiens]

One difference between a pilot house and a deck saloon, for conning a boat, is being able to keep watch over 360 without leaving the helm. The visibility aft on a lot of DS is poor, especially when the hatch is closed to keep the weather out. Also the DS helm visibility is usually not good enough to moor the boat. The result is having to pay for two helming positions, and end up using only one of them.