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  #11  
Old 12-02-2010
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CD,

I don't understand that choice for a wing keel (unless that’s the only the option Catalina has for a short draft ).

A 6ft fin keel with a big bulb on the bottom would be a better option. That solution would require for the same righting moment a lot less ballast and that would mean a faster boat. That's why almost all European boats follow that option on their short draft versions and on 40ft boats (even bigger) their short draft versions have less than 6ft draft.

Besides we have already seen that a wing keel with 6ft draft needs more draft if the boat is heeled (sailing) and that is surely a big disadvantage.

Regarding the list, it is a nice one but as you have said, all boats are compromises and our perfect list will never fit completely. Regarding those compromises I would say that you miss an important one: PRICE

Most of us would not have a problem in choosing a boat if that was not that limitation and price is one of the main factors in a choice, at least for most of us.

I would say that a boat that would fit that bill would be the Dufour 425. Bigger, faster, with more space and very good storage, for about the same price.

http://www.dufour-yachts.com/boat-dufour-425-8.html

Anyway, even with the same program, two different sailors would chose probably two different boats just because they like different styles in interiors and in the outside line of the boat. After all boats are not a rational thing, but a passion one, and passion has not much to do with reason

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-02-2010 at 02:13 PM.
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CD, thanks for this essay. Even if some things are personal preferences, its really helpful to hear what you find has matters to you, in actual practice. Especially since you have the benefit of looking back on your experiences with animals and children on board.

Plus, I'm all about check lists, so this offers some items to note and compare, between boats.

I found your comments about performance interesting, as I sometimes fall into the mode of assuming that I am not after speed or performance, but instead something "heavy." One of the unresolved questions we will have to tackle is whether we want a full keel boat or something a bit faster and livelier.

Regarding draft ... Is 5' 10" cutting it too close for comfort? One of the Moodys I have a crush on has a fin keel that deep. I'd have go unearth my notes, but I think one of the catalinas I put on my boat book also set that deep. Would it be a lot smarter, for sailing down your way, to look for something 4'-5'?

Last edited by seaparrot; 12-02-2010 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 12-02-2010
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CD, Thanks for your post. Since we are looking at opinions here what do you consider fast enough?
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Old 12-02-2010
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Brian,

I do nto travel at the moment in those area's. "IF" I did, I would probably go with a CB style boat, so I could get thru those shallows, and put the CB down when I was in deeper area's. Where I am in Puget sound, I know of only one place that is really an issue, and that is the Swinomish channel, north of me where JRD, Charlie, stilly, erps are. Which will be filled in by 2015 is some money is not come up with to dredge it. Which usually needs dredging every 3 yrs or so.

To me less than 6' of draft would be dangerous, for you over is dangerous for a 40ish foot boat. Just shows the different needs we have for how we sail and where. It would take a 12' raft on a -4 tide to ground in my marina! 100' off the marina you are in 100+ ft of water.

marty
You've gotta go about 100 miles offshore to get into 100 feet of water around here!!!!! HEHE!

Brian
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Old 12-02-2010
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Great post Brian. You have said pretty much ( almost) all of the things we look for and the reasons behind it. The keel issue - well the entire yacht has to be looked at - some yachts seem to have just added on the keel and it will cause a horrible motion at sea or in a (unforgivably) rolly anchorage. Sideways slip does not always also account for roll dampening effects. If you are in spots where it is likely that a sandy bottom will meet your hull on occasion, a fin keel is nasty, but easier to get off the sand.[ easier to get off the hull too!]

I think you have a to have a fast, safe, comfortable yacht, with all the things you want and enough space to have a 'spot' for each on board to call their own. I could not agree more about the beds. Pulmans were designed by single sailors.

Brian also needs to raise the waterline to account fo the bbq.

[For the rest of us, it used to be an inch per tonne extra on board but this ratio is obviously different for lighter yachts].

You have a beaut boat and you use it.

cheers
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2010
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
CD,

I don't understand that choice for a wing keel (unless thatís the only the option Catalina has for a short draft ).

A 6ft fin keel with a big bulb on the bottom would be a better option. That solution would require for the same righting moment a lot less ballast and that would mean a faster boat. That's why almost all European boats follow that option on their short draft versions and on 40ft boats (even bigger) their short draft versions have less than 6ft draft.

Besides we have already seen that a wing keel with 6ft draft needs more draft if the boat is heeled (sailing) and that is surely a big disadvantage.

Regarding the list, it is a nice one but as you have said, all boats are compromises and our perfect list will never fit completely. Regarding those compromises I would say that you miss an important one: PRICE

Most of us would not have a problem in choosing a boat if that was not that limitation and price is one of the main factors in a choice, at least for most of us.

I would say that a boat that would fit that bill would be the Dufour 425. Bigger, faster, with more space and very good storage, for about the same price.

http://www.dufour-yachts.com/boat-dufour-425-8.html

Anyway, even with the same program, two different sailors would chose probably two different boats just because they like different styles in interiors and in the outside line of the boat. After all boats are not a rational thing, but a passion one, and passion has not much to do with reason

Regards

Paulo
Hey Paulo! How are you!??

Well, first off, you may be right about the wink keel option. I have not had the expeirence of sailing on fin-bulb keeled boats that I can remember. I would have to have some experience on them on shore and off before I would opt for one. I will say that my experience with a wing has been generally positive and have no problem reccomending one. I do like the fins better, but many if not most of the fins down here are deep draft boats and unsuitable for the waters I sail (Bahamas, most of Florida, and in fact much of the waters south). It is very hard for other sailors like you and my other Portugese friend to realize that 10 feet would keep you about 5-10 miles offshore down here! And in the keys, Bahamas.... forget it. You will be anchoring with the tankers!

I like the Dufors, but my only personal negative of the boat is the locatio nof the galley. When we cook and eat, I want it totally seperate. It makes it easier for us when entertaining or when we are doing homework. FOr exampkle, Kris and I often have one person cooking and the other working with the kids on the stuff (or playing games or watching TV, etc) and that is a lto easier done for us when it is totally seperated. To be very clear: this is our personal preference. Others will feel totally different. Just my negative of the boat. In fact, it is enough of a negative that I would not consider a boat at all with that layout. When dinner has been cooked and we are all sitting down, I don't want to see the mes in the galley!!! Just me.

As far as price, you are correct. Our boat does meet most of the requirements that we have. Some of the ones it did not meet we modified for. The excptions are the Fwd facing nav station (I have to clamp myself in on a bad sea as mine faces port), the seperate bunks (the C400 and 42 does come in a 3 cabin version, but they put the galley across from the salon table which again I do not like), and tankage (which I modify). The Bene 423 has a similar layout (2 cab version). I cannot remember the model, but there is a Jeauneau with one too but I rmember teh lazarette being very small.

Everyone has their own list and priorities, of course. THese were just mine (and why).

Brian
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2010
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Originally Posted by seaparrot View Post
CD, thanks for this essay. Even if some things are personal preferences, its really helpful to hear what you find has matters to you, in actual practice. Especially since you have the benefit of looking back on your experiences with animals and children on board.

Plus, I'm all about check lists, so this offers some items to note and compare, between boats.

I found your comments about performance interesting, as I sometimes fall into the mode of assuming that I am not after speed or performance, but instead something "heavy." One of the unresolved questions we will have to tackle is whether we want a full keel boat or something a bit faster and livelier.

Regarding draft ... Is 5' 10" cutting it too close for comfort? One of the Moodys I have a crush on has a fin keel that deep. I'd have go unearth my notes, but I think one of the catalinas I put on my boat book also set that deep. Would it be a lot smarter, for sailing down your way, to look for something 4'-5'?
Don't trust the literature. Those are typically DESIGNED drafts, not real world. The C400 draws 5'10. But once she is loaded up, plan on 6'. Six is not great, but it is ok and do-able down here. I would not go over 6 if I could help it.

Remember, performance boat does not mean race boat. I would really urge you to consider getting a boat that will achieve hull speed in 15 knots of wind or so. There are simply too many reasons to do so. Another well made boat with a very nice following are the Sabres. Take a look at them. Also, take a look at the C400 and Bene 423 for amore modern hull design.

Do not mistake bulk for safety. The ability to limit your time in harms way is at least (if not more) important as how the boat handles gales and storms. I have seen some pretty nasty weather in my 400 and she was very sure footed and took the weather well.



I am not pushing you away from the Moodys at all. I would just really suggest you consider other boats and discuss with other sailors that have done it (a unique distinction sometimes) before committing yourself to one particular philosophy and brand.

Brian
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  #18  
Old 12-02-2010
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CD, Thanks for your post. Since we are looking at opinions here what do you consider fast enough?
Hull speed in 15-20kts, with the preference pushing 15.
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Last edited by Cruisingdad; 12-02-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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Great post Brian. You have said pretty much ( almost) all of the things we look for and the reasons behind it. The keel issue - well the entire yacht has to be looked at - some yachts seem to have just added on the keel and it will cause a horrible motion at sea or in a (unforgivably) rolly anchorage. Sideways slip does not always also account for roll dampening effects. If you are in spots where it is likely that a sandy bottom will meet your hull on occasion, a fin keel is nasty, but easier to get off the sand.[ easier to get off the hull too!]

I think you have a to have a fast, safe, comfortable yacht, with all the things you want and enough space to have a 'spot' for each on board to call their own. I could not agree more about the beds. Pulmans were designed by single sailors.

Brian also needs to raise the waterline to account fo the bbq.

[For the rest of us, it used to be an inch per tonne extra on board but this ratio is obviously different for lighter yachts].

You have a beaut boat and you use it.

cheers
Thank you as always for the very nice post!

Brian
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  #20  
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CD, thanks for elaborating. Perhaps what you mention about speed should knock the Tayanas and the other full-keeled boats down a notch or two. I've noted your recommendation on 15' knots being a good target speed.

Do not worry about us committing to just one option for now. I think I gave that impression by asking about Moody specifically, but we're collecting notes on multiple boats and are far from a decision. My motivation for asking about Moody in particular relates the the fact that we liked some features of the one we saw, but our notes on them are a little thin. Thus I'm trying to decide if they were worthy of staying on my top-5 list. Especially since seeing more of them requires me to get in the car and drive across a few states.
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