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  #21  
Old 12-02-2010
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Originally Posted by seaparrot View Post
Perhaps what you mention about speed should knock the Tayanas and the other full-keeled boats down a notch or two.
YEPPERS! THat is my concern with the boats. But I knwo the 42 VERY VERY WELL. Good boat and built like a tank. My dad loves her. Ask away on her... but I think you will not get a 42 for your price range that does not have issues.

Brian
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  #22  
Old 12-02-2010
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CD,

I think most of what you said is why we liked the Catalina 42 at the boat show so much, the 3 cabin layout with Pullman in one. Damn nice boat IMO, that is a realistic option for us. Thanks for posting, and if you want to respond with a PM with your opinion on the C42 I wouldn't mind
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  #23  
Old 12-02-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
...It is very hard for other sailors like you and my other Portugese friend to realize that 10 feet would keep you about 5-10 miles offshore down here! And in the keys, Bahamas.... forget it. You will be anchoring with the tankers!

I like the Dufors, but my only personal negative of the boat is the locatio nof the galley. When we cook and eat, I want it totally seperate. It makes it easier for us when entertaining or when we are doing homework. FOr exampkle, Kris and I often have one person cooking and the other working with the kids on the stuff (or playing games or watching TV, etc) and that is a lto easier done for us when it is totally seperated. To be very clear: this is our personal preference. Others will feel totally different. Just my negative of the boat. In fact, it is enough of a negative that I would not consider a boat at all with that layout. When dinner has been cooked and we are all sitting down, I don't want to see the mes in the galley!!! Just me.

As far as price, you are correct. ..
Brian
Hello Brian,

I am not a racer and in what regards draft I can understand you very well. My wife wants me to buy a Southerly and I also like to anchor as close as land as I can. Even liking fast boats I will also compromise. I will not have a southerly (maybe a Pogo ) but certainly I will not have a boat with more than about 7ft draft.

Regarding the head layout you are not the only one. I would also prefer what they now call the "classical" layout. Funny thing is that now in Europe most sailors prefer what they call "modern" layout, the one that the Dufour uses.

Of course, if price was not so important I would recommend this one strongly to fit your program:

http://www.yacht.de/yo/yo_news/powerslave,id,8548,nodeid,294.html?s=r
http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/40094.asp#79940

Not only it is a gorgeous boat, as I think it will cover all your needs and I dare to say it is a better boat than the Catalina (off course I am kidding, there is nothing better than a Catalina ). But anyway, it is faster, more seaworthy, 5.6ft draft, lots of storage, with a great build and with a very high quality classy interior, only with a small defect....price.

For me it is too....perfect and not sufficiently exciting or fast, but that is just me.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-02-2010 at 06:08 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-02-2010
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Brian, Great write-up. I'd add air conditioning to the list of options and I'm with you on the L-shaped galley. The modern in-line galleys just don't feel right to me.

I'd add two rather fuzzy things to the list. Just because a boat is big or roomy doesn't mean it's comfortable. You need cozy nooks where you can curl up and get comfortable. I feel so strongly about this I re-did our interior and made changes to the setees.

The other is the boat should look pretty to your eye. Some may laugh but I think it's important.

Jim
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hull speed in 15-20kts, with the preference pushing 15.
So not to get in to the "Numbers Game" but, what tells me that a boat will do this? SA/D or is there something else that I can gauge this by? If SA/D, what is a minimum value?
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  #26  
Old 12-03-2010
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Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Brian, Great write-up. I'd add air conditioning to the list of options and I'm with you on the L-shaped galley. The modern in-line galleys just don't feel right to me.

I'd add two rather fuzzy things to the list. Just because a boat is big or roomy doesn't mean it's comfortable. You need cozy nooks where you can curl up and get comfortable. I feel so strongly about this I re-did our interior and made changes to the setees.

The other is the boat should look pretty to your eye. Some may laugh but I think it's important.

Jim
Jim -

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you typed. I kinda mentioned a/c but not a lot. Problem with AC is that unless you are in a dock, you gotta run the generator to make it work and that is not very practical most of the time. We actually do not run the AC much on the hook - a benefit of lots of hatches. But at the dock and as a liveaboard, no air considtioner would kill you!

Brian
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  #27  
Old 12-03-2010
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Originally Posted by cb32863 View Post
So not to get in to the "Numbers Game" but, what tells me that a boat will do this? SA/D or is there something else that I can gauge this by? If SA/D, what is a minimum value?
Maybe PHRF versus SA/D. And thoe numbers won't give you whethere the boat is tender. I would never intentioally own another tender boat. I think sure footed boats are teh only way to go for cruising.

For example, on our C380, we might have had a relatively high SA/D (relative to other boats of that class... she was no speedster), but she was tender. There wree many times we would not sail her because we knew if we threw out the sails, we would flop to the rail and crap would go spilling everywhere down below.

Now, contrast that with my 400, I can throw out all the canvas in 20 and she slowly falls over to 15 degrees. Instead of falling further to her rail, she accelerates.

I am not sure there is a good way to gauge sure footedness short of test sailing and asking around???

Others may know better about this than me.

Brian
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  #28  
Old 12-03-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hello Brian,

I am not a racer and in what regards draft I can understand you very well. My wife wants me to buy a Southerly and I also like to anchor as close as land as I can. Even liking fast boats I will also compromise. I will not have a southerly (maybe a Pogo ) but certainly I will not have a boat with more than about 7ft draft.

Regarding the head layout you are not the only one. I would also prefer what they now call the "classical" layout. Funny thing is that now in Europe most sailors prefer what they call "modern" layout, the one that the Dufour uses.

Of course, if price was not so important I would recommend this one strongly to fit your program:

http://www.yacht.de/yo/yo_news/powerslave,id,8548,nodeid,294.html?s=r
http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/40094.asp#79940

Not only it is a gorgeous boat, as I think it will cover all your needs and I dare to say it is a better boat than the Catalina (off course I am kidding, there is nothing better than a Catalina ). But anyway, it is faster, more seaworthy, 5.6ft draft, lots of storage, with a great build and with a very high quality classy interior, only with a small defect....price.

For me it is too....perfect and not sufficiently exciting or fast, but that is just me.

Regards

Paulo
Yeahhhhhhhh.... X yacht! I like em!!

Incidentally, the X has a VERY similar (almost exact) layout as my boat, except I have a centerline queen (much better than those aft berths). In all seriousness, you should look at a C400 if you can get one there. You can always say 'no'... but you should at least look at it.

A Southerly, huh?? Come to think of it, you better fly your wife to the US and look at a C400 REALLY quick!!! (snicker).

Brian
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  #29  
Old 12-03-2010
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Brian, you're doing the same type of cruising the wife and I want to do in the next 2-3 years when we retire, New England to the islands. After reading your post I feel that much better about our 08 Bene 43. Other than the having shallow bilges and a V berth (something we're fine with) she pretty much matches your description. Fast (easily exceeds hull speed) and stable, 5.5' draft, roller furling sails, roomy two wheel cockpit (fits 12 for dinner), two heads (one w/separate shower), nice galley with storage, roomy and comfortable main salon as well as berths, roomy cockpit lockers, good looking and for our budget affordable. As far as the cockpit enclosure is concerned our's was worth every penny and probably the single best addition to the boat. Thanks for the post and enjoy every moment of your adventure.
Mike
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  #30  
Old 12-03-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Maybe PHRF versus SA/D. And thoe numbers won't give you whethere the boat is tender. I would never intentioally own another tender boat. I think sure footed boats are teh only way to go for cruising.

For example, on our C380, we might have had a relatively high SA/D (relative to other boats of that class... she was no speedster), but she was tender. There wree many times we would not sail her because we knew if we threw out the sails, we would flop to the rail and crap would go spilling everywhere down below.

Now, contrast that with my 400, I can throw out all the canvas in 20 and she slowly falls over to 15 degrees. Instead of falling further to her rail, she accelerates.

I am not sure there is a good way to gauge sure footedness short of test sailing and asking around???

Others may know better about this than me.

Brian
Brian,

I don't know the catalina 38 nor the 400 but for what I can tell from their hulls, they are very different boats. The 400 has a modern hull, not far away from a Beneteau hull and the 38 has an old style designed hull.

I believe that when you talk about the 38 being tender and about the 400 "sure footedness", you are not talking about seaworthiness, or stiffness, but about different hull and sailing philosophies.

Simply, the 400, like the Beneteau and almost all European cruisers, is designed to sail with a 15º heel while the old styled 38 is designed to sail with a lot more heel.

This has nothing to do with stiffness. Stiffness is related with the sail area the boat can take and the wind the boat can handle before it needs to be reefed. To explain this better, let’s take for an instance a J122, a considerable stiffer boat, if compared with the Catalina 400. It can take more sail and almost certainly will reef later....but will sail with a lot more heel, because it is a narrower boat and it is designed to obtain its best performance with a considerable heel. Regarding what I call "sure footedness", it will also be better, because it has a lot more reserve stability (a higher LPS and a smaller inverted stability).

Off course, in what regards cruising boats, for most people, it is a lot more convenient to sail with less heel and a new generation of cruisers was born. These ones maximize that concept, a step further than what it is made in the new Catalinas or on the traditional line of Benetaus, boats that are a mix between a Cat and a sailboat. I am talking about the new Sense series by Beneteau or the new Felling by Alliura:

Sense 43
Alliaura

But less heel does not mean more seaworthiness, or a more sure footed boat, at least in the way I consider it.

Regarding the cruising boats I know, the ones that sail with less heel (not so much as on the Feeling or Alliura) and are more stiff and seaworthy are the RM. These ones besides an impressive safety record, can also be sailed from the interior. Real modern cruising passage makers

RM YACHTS | Accueil

I have considered having one of these and test sailed a RM1200, but even if it has just a perfect interior (to my tastes) and sail very well, it just cannot gives me that extra sailing fun that I find primordial in a sailing boat...I know I know, I am mad Just mad about sailing.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-03-2010 at 05:00 PM.
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