…I had mention earlier I was going to do the delivery for the 409 but due to health reasons I was unable to join the crew. So the sailing characteristics are unknown to me personally.
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The new 409 I was excited to see due to all the hype in the all the sailing magazines. It is a gorgeous boat with good sheer, low freeboard and dynamite topsides. ..
Melrna, I would have liked to hear your opinion. I have not sailed the boat but have talked with some experienced sailors that have done that and they are unanimous in considering it an above average sailing boat, a fast boat, very easy to handle. The only criticism I have heard has to do with a helm that could transmit more sensations to the helmsman. Tim Murphy one of the Cruising World editors tested it for the Magazine and said about it:
“imediately noticeable under sail is the refined thinking that Philippe Briand and the Jeanneau Design Team have invested in the deck layout. It wasn’t very long ago that BOTY judges were lamenting the way that work stations were scattered all across the cockpits of new boats, from the coamings to the cabintops, making it difficult to sail shorthanded. No more. On the 409, as well as on many other of this year’s fleet, we were happy to see sailhandling lines and winches laid out within easy reach of the helm.
“The exciting thing here is the winches,” said BOTY judge Beth Leonard. Indeed, the 409 was said to be the first boat in the U.S. market to sport Harken’s new Rewind Radial Electric Winches. In one setting, you can use the two buttons in a high-speed/low-power mode or a slow-speed/high power mode—so far, just like any other electric winch. But by flipping a switch on the winch drum, you can do what no production-boat electric winch has let you do before: ease a line under load, safely and easily, without stripping it from the self-tailer. Harken’s new radial drum design promises to prevent overrides as well.
This boat had a single winch installed at each of the two helm stations, port and starboard. We would’ve liked to have had a third winch dedicated solely to the mainsheet. The boat we sailed was laid out with a double-ended mainsheet, each end of which runs aft through a stopper to the winch near the helm station. Because it shares the winch with the genoa sheet, which is always made fast to leeward, we were compelled on every tack or jibe to move the mainsheet to the windward winch. Especially when you’re jibing, you don’t want to rely on a closed sheet stopper while you clear the leeward winch for the genoa sheet. It’s a small quibble in an otherwise lovely working layout.
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“I was pleased with the performance of the boat,” said BOTY judge Ed Sherman, having sailed at 6.1 knots into 10 knots of true wind. A 40-horse Yanmar provided plenty of power to push the 409 along at 7.5 knots. In terms of noise under power, the boat was smack-dab in the middle of the fleet: 88 decibels at 2,600 rpm; 91 decibels at 3,000 rpm.”
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Originally Posted by Melrna
Another thing I didn't care for was the single shroud attachment point. I am sure it is engineered to some level but it looked like it can come apart at a moment's notice. …. I have seen smaller 20' boats with stronger support for the mast than this set-up. But like I said, I sure some French engineer will say it is strong enough for ocean sailing.
Yes, you can be sure about that. I am sure the boat is correctly engineered. Its designer is Phillipe Brian, a very experienced naval architect with experience in light and strong materials and technologies that comes from racing boats. Among many others he designed Mari-Cha IV the biggest racing sailboat.
The French naval architects are very involved with racing sailboats and utilize those new technologies and materials on cruising boats. That permits to build lighter boats that are as strong as heavier boats built with older technologies. Lighter boats sail better, need less sail area and can use less ballast than heavier boats.
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Originally Posted by Melrna
Down below: I really like the layout of this boat. That is all I can say that is good about it. The styling while IKEA in nature seems to have taken over the boating industry and not my style, I can see others liking this type of design. What I found was it was only skin deep. When I took this boat apart I was hugely disappointed so much I had to walk away from the boat for awhile to collect myself. It seemed like it was all a facade. Minimum material used and the cheapest found. It felt like the whole interior was particle board with some veneer over it. Strings were used to hold open the doors, 1/8 plywood for the top coverings under the beds and settees, floor boards so badly made I wanted to scream. It was all shame because this could be a really great boat.
Here I don’t follow you. I have been inside the boat several times and have looked not only to the general appearance but also to the built quality. I have done that carefully because my wife really wanted me to buy this boat.
My opinion coincides with the many boat testers that tested the boat: This boat has an above average interior and represents an improvement over jeanneau previous standards and over the average mass production standard.
Or utilizing the words of the British jury of the European boat of the year contest (that the 409 won): “The message is clear, Jeanneau are heading back to their roots with a good looking, solidly built boat that has an eye on the future as well”, in the words of the Italian Jury: “The more complete boat of the category, she looks more luxurious and refined than her class. She seems to be back to the Jeanneau best times, when they were making medium quality boats far from their cousins Beneteau” or in the words of the Austrian Jury: “ The interior is made with brain and charm; well done woodwork with good working fittings”. These guys are professionals, they test many boats each year, American and European and know very well the differences among them, in performance and quality.
Of course this is a mass production boat, made for a price. Its quality should be compared with the ones with similar prices, like Hunter, Benetau, Bavaria or Dufour and regarding those, its quality is similar and on some cases better. If you want boats without “cutting corners”, look at Halberg-Rassies, Najads, Malos, Finngulfs. Perhaps you can pay them, most of us can’t but anyway, it is not fair to compare, or expect that the Jeanneau 409 could be built the same way.
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Originally Posted by Melrna
The rudder is composite frame with foam. Those that followed the Hunter story from the early 2000-2005 models knows that did not work out well for them. This rudder stock looked worse than what the Hunters had. When I asked them about how it is made, I was told they just roll up fiberglass like one does a newspaper.
Yes, that’s true that the Hunters had some problems with rudders that have been solved since then. But the jeanneaus never had that kind of problem. As there are much more Jeanneaus than Hunters (only the 39 sold over a thousand boats) if there was a problem that had to do with bad design and construction it would be noticed and many boats would suffer from it. It is not the case.
So, if they use well proven methods that were “tested” without problems in thousands of boats, some circumnavigating and many making extensive passages, why question their rudder building technique, that never had given them problems? I am sure they are not built exactly the same way the Hunter rudders where, if it that was the case, they would have had problems also.
[quote=PCP;702305]Melrna, I would have liked to hear your opinion. I have not sailed the boat but have talked with some experienced sailors that have done that and they are unanimous in considering it an above average sailing boat, a fast boat, very easy to handle. The only criticism I have heard has to do with a helm that could transmit more sensations to the helmsman. Tim Murphy one of the Cruising World editors tested it for the Magazine and said about it:
“imediately noticeable under sail is the refined thinking that Philippe Briand and the Jeanneau Design Team have invested in the deck layout. It wasn’t very long ago that BOTY judges were lamenting the way that work stations were scattered all across the cockpits of new boats, from the coamings to the cabintops, making it difficult to sail shorthanded. No more. On the 409, as well as on many other of this year’s fleet, we were happy to see sailhandling lines and winches laid out within easy reach of the helm.
I did have a chance to chat with the delivery folks and they all agreed the boat is an above average sailing vessel. I really think they got this right.
Yes, you can be sure about that. I am sure the boat is correctly engineered. Its designer is Phillipe Brian, a very experienced naval architect with experience in light and strong materials and technologies that comes from racing boats. Among many others he designed Mari-Cha IV the biggest racing sailboat.
It is here I will have to start to disagree with you here. I am sure for coastal cruising this boat is fine. But with this set-uo I would be deathly afraid of a knock down and the mast survive. With a single point chainplate system and a non robust one at that, I would be very skeptical. While Mr Brain is a good architect, sometimes on mass production boats, dollars talk and engineering walks. Here are some more examples on this boat.
The Keel.. It is bolted on . No J-bolts with heavy duty nuts... Just bolted on with hex-coils in the cast iron keel to hold the whole dang thing up.
Cleats - No backing plates
Plywood under the settees and bunks. 1/8' thick and "S" cut outs like a puzzle to hold them in. No hardware what so ever, i.e. like hinges to hold them up when one goes to get things in the lockers.
Small strings to hold open the drop down locker doors. Cheap Cheap Cheap.
Topside coachroof safety bars. . Recess into the cabin top.. Worthless.
NO Fuel filters on the engine.. Give me a break.
I don't know what you are used too for the woodworking in Europe, but the IKEA built cabinets are a piece of junk. Maybe they are building a different boat in Europe than here in the US but what I saw was junk. Hunter and Catalina are far superior in this regard. Like your wife, I really like the design of this boat just in my case I don't like the fit and finish and quality. I had my checkbook with me to trade my boat for this boat. My dealer was drooling when I showed up. I was really going to buy this boat. But I couldn't with what I saw in the quality of the build.
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It is here I will have to start to disagree with you here. I am sure for coastal cruising this boat is fine. But with this set-uo I would be deathly afraid of a knock down and the mast survive. With a single point chainplate system and a non robust one at that, I would be very skeptical. While Mr Brain is a good architect, sometimes on mass production boats, dollars talk and engineering walks. Here are some more examples on this boat.
Melrna, as I have said the Jeanneau 409 uses modern building techniques that come from racing boats. French designers have a lot of experience with them. The boat weights a ton less than its competitors and the same weight as more expensive boats that use the same building techniques.
If you want a boat that uses more traditional build methods look at Bavarias, they look stronger. But looking stronger does not mean they are stronger. Look at this shroud with a single point chainplate.
It looks very thin and fragile for an Open60, a boat with a huge sail area. The efforts on that single point are just massive and that system have proved very well engineered and up to the job.
All modern shrouds and chainplates seem more fragile (and lighter) than the ones that were used 10 or 15 years ago but the mast and the overall fixation works better. Last year talking with the boss of a charter fleet and asking him how frequently he tunned the riggings and about the number of broken masts due to improper use or unappropriated tension of shrouds he said something like this: Today the masts (and rigging) are a lot better and we have almost no accidents even if we charter boats for racing and in the spring we can have winds over 40K and the crews are normally a joke.
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Originally Posted by Melrna
The Keel.. It is bolted on . No J-bolts with heavy duty nuts... Just bolted on with hex-coils in the cast iron keel to hold the whole dang thing up.
The system they use on this boat to fix the keel is no different from the one they have used on the thousands of boats they have made in the last years and there are no reported problems with the Jeanneau keels.
The problem and the main forces involved with a keel have not to do with holding the keel vertically but with the structure needed to absorb all lateral forces when the boat is heeled and crashes in the waves. When in some boats the keels broke by the fixation points, normally it is not because they are not strong enough but because lateral efforts are not sufficiently absorbed by the support structure and produce a continuous flexing of the part of the hull where the keel is fixed that results, with time, in a weakening and subsequent failure.
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Originally Posted by Melrna
Cleats - No backing plates
Backing plates are just the more traditional way of reinforce points where efforts are going to be applied. There are other methods to reinforce those points. I Believe they reinforce those points with extra layers of material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna
Plywood under the settees and bunks. 1/8' thick and "S" cut outs like a puzzle to hold them in. No hardware what so ever, i.e. like hinges to hold them up when one goes to get things in the lockers.
Small strings to hold open the drop down locker doors. Cheap Cheap Cheap.
....I don't know what you are used too for the woodworking in Europe, but the IKEA built cabinets are a piece of junk. Maybe they are building a different boat in Europe than here in the US but what I saw was junk. Hunter and Catalina are far superior in this regard.
If you compare the price of a 41 Hunter with the price of the Jeanneau 409 you are going to see that the Jeanneau is a lot of boat for the money, but there are no miracles. Even if scale and more modern building techniques can justify some of the differences in cost, European mass production boats are involved in a price war that comes from 7 or 8 years back. The competition is much bigger than in America and they try to produce good boats at the lowest price. Guess we are already used to what one has to expect from Bavarias, Dufours , Jeanneaus and Benetaus: Very well designed boats, good sailing boats, structurally sound , with an interior that in some cases look and fell very comfortable but that underneath is quite rough. I would say that in most cases they just left some parts for you to finish. That's what you pay for inexpensive boats.
Of course, the jeanneaus 409 that I have saw were made in France and I don't know the standard of finish of the American factory but I would find odd American Jeanneaus to be of inferior quality. Perhaps you have saw just the first boat, just finished in a hurry to the boat show?
The quality and life expectancy are not so bad. This boat is not of inferior quality, regarding other Jeanneau, and the boats are used heavily on the charter market for about 5 or 6 years before being sold in reasonable condition and for good price on the used market. 5 years of boat charter correspond probably to 15 years of use by a "normal" owner.
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Originally Posted by Melrna
NO Fuel filters on the engine.. Give me a break.
Melra, I don't know of what you are talking about. You mean a filter on the fuel line before the engine? In Europe we don't use them anymore. More problems than gains. If you are talking about the engine fuel filter, it is a part of the engine. The engine is a 3JH5CE Yanmar and the filter is this one: Yanmar - Mercruiser - Vetus - Racor - Separ - Spares & Parts - Online Shop - Sales & Service
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna
Like your wife, I really like the design of this boat just in my case I don't like the fit and finish and quality. I had my checkbook with me to trade my boat for this boat. My dealer was drooling when I showed up. I was really going to buy this boat. But I couldn't with what I saw in the quality of the build.
Melrna, the quality of the finish is the one you see (nice on the outside rough on the inside) but in what regards structural quality I thing you are misjudging this boat and expecting to find traditional building solutions instead of more modern techniques that have been used and tried with success, first on racing boats and now on cruising boats.
It is completely useless to talk about building details or construction methods with dealers. If you want more information about the boat and the way it is built I would suggest that you talk with Eric Stromberg. He is American, a very nice guy and have been deeply involved in the Jeanneau 409 manufacture. I believe he knows everything about that boat.
The interior of the Jeanneaus is the same in Europe as it is here in the states. The interior parts are cut at a factory in France using lasers, similar to S&G dinghys one gets kits for here in the states. They then pack it on a pallet, ship to the US, install in the boat made here in SC. So reality is, the fit and finish should not be any different with a French mad boat, vs a US boat per say. Interior Material is finished in the same factory.
As far as rudders go. There have been a few reported shaft failures (2-3) at the Owners forum site. No one has figure out the reasons as of yet.
Keels...... My 85 iron keel is still on my boat, interior altho made different than todays boat, still strong etc I have revarnished everything a few years back. I would say this is to be expected in a 20 something year old boat. Boat across from me was just purchased, a CS design, same designer ie Tony Castro, varnish is good, but needs some help to shine things up a bit.
The issue with the interiors generally speaking, is in Europe. trees to make ALL solid wood items are gone. so they have gone to plywood/veneer finish products. That does not sit well with folks from NAmerica. Personally, I do feel the interiors are as strong, finished well etc. it does have a different feel than boats built here, ie Catalina, Hunter etc. Either you like it, or you do not. On the other hand, my wife walks into most catalinas, says yuck, walks out, goes into a jeanneau, starts to purr. Different boat, different strokes, for different folks.
Fuel filters...... I only have one fuel filter on all my trucks, and off road rigs, I do have 2 on my boat. but would imagine one would do as it does on other four rigs.
Rigging I have not looked at, but to me, lighter is better, as long as it is strong! This may be an issue for some here in NA< bigger is better and stronger......not always IMHO!
There are no folks at the owners site that have 409's or the new 439 as of yet. The fellow that runs the owners site does have a review of the 409. SO409 on the water
Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
I put some boats in the Sailing portion of the Miami show for a few years and as I recall all told, I may have sold 5 boats.
The Sailing section (used to be strictly Sail), of the Miami show is pretty dismal (In terms of $$ earned), which reflects the overall state of the industry and the amount of expendable cash a buyer may have to invest in a boat at this particular time, especially in the local market.
I depended on folks from the Midwest and up North to look at the inventory we moved to the show and get away from the cold for a spell.
We did keep an inventory boat in the water in South Florida, (providing me a place to stay anytime!), that allowed us to provide Demos right through the winter even though the client would be up North or in the Midwest somewhere. After the boats sold, we would of course transport them to wherever the client would be situated.
Now, at the Yacht and Brokerage Show, that is another story. We have had vessels ( 75' > 130') there with price tags in the many millions. That segment of the market is "bumping along". A lot of International Buyers.
If you have never been to the Yacht and Brokerage show in Collins Ave, It is a must. Hard to believe actually.
I just stumbled across this thread, and realize that it is dated. But here is a tidbit; Last year I "worked" at the Newport boat show. A lot of manufacturers had a tabletop, but no display at the show. HOWEVER - If you went over and talked to the reps, they would let you know about the boats that they had tied to the pier in front of the IYRA building. I had never been aboard a Morris, but WOW!
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. That's what you pay for inexpensive boats.
