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  #11  
Old 06-29-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
rockdawg, yes the 409 price is pretty good for a boat it's size. But we all know, you get what you pay for. Some of the feedback from people who have crawled all over the boat, wasn't as enthusiastic as the hype from europe will lead you to believe.
Thanks for the useful citation. I need to read very critical review to make an informed decision.

Last night after 3 days sailing and get back to Annapolis, we stopped by the Jeanneau dealer to look at the boat. It was late, the office was closed by all the boats are in water. I took a closer look. I am happy with the new approach and design work, but many thing were put together for form over function.

I have made an appointment to see the broker. They also have a program that we can charter the boat before we commit. It will be wonderful if we can charter for two weeks for an off-shore trial. For all indication, I believe the 409 is made for coastal and bay sailing. My question is will she sail comfortably and take care herself like HR39, Sabre 40 or Caliber 40 LCR in the rough sea.
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  #12  
Old 06-30-2011
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If they were truly ONLY coastal and bay sailing, WHY does this boat have a european A rating? ie ocean rating to with stand seas to 10 meters, winds to force 10, which IIRC is at least 50+ knots? Granted it may not be the strongest boat in the open ocean rating class. BUT< it is still rated to do so. Just like the SO37 you are sailing currently, which by the way, MANY of them have done open ocean sailing, the 409 will probably do just fine.

You will also probably find the 409 will go faster by a reasonable clip over an HR, Sabre or caliber too. So less potential time in the open to deal with storm conditions.

Then again, I have yet to get on a 409, I think there has only been one delivered here in Seattle, not sure if it is sold or still at the dealer, so it may not be as nice as the older versions like the SO37 etc. Gut tells me, taking a 409 off shore should not be an issue! Unless you want to go around cape horn...........now on a bad day you might have an issue with the 409!

marty
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  #13  
Old 06-30-2011
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Depending on how hard chined the boat is, you will love it or hate it. Ours is a 'flatter' bottom than many boats, and almost all Catalinas except the new 445 (Which I really like). THe pros are that the boat should perform a lot better than the typical round bottom boat. We also found our boat to be more sure footed and sail flatter. Alltogether she is comfortable at sea. THe bad is if it is too hard chined, for a sailboat especially, when you get into choppy water or a large sea (for us about 10'), when she jumps off the waves, it sounds like a bass drum below. There are some boats with hard chimes that are so loud it has run off the owners. You can PM for the mfg I will not put it openly.

I am not familiar with the 409. Have not seen her or sailed her. But I am curious how you build a 40' boat at $200k? Wow. The C400's new will run you well into the 200s with your final bill likely into the low 3's after you get everything you want on them. At least that is what a dealer told me.

I would at least look at a Bene 40 and a C400 for comparrison. I like the Sabres too. But I don't think you will touch any of them in the 200k range... not realistically.

Hope that helps. Good luck with the purchase.

Brian
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  #14  
Old 06-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
If they were truly ONLY coastal and bay sailing, WHY does this boat have a european A rating? ie ocean rating to with stand seas to 10 meters, winds to force 10, which IIRC is at least 50+ knots? Granted it may not be the strongest boat in the open ocean rating class. BUT< it is still rated to do so. Just like the SO37 you are sailing currently, which by the way, MANY of them have done open ocean sailing, the 409 will probably do just fine.

You will also probably find the 409 will go faster by a reasonable clip over an HR, Sabre or caliber too. So less potential time in the open to deal with storm conditions.

Then again, I have yet to get on a 409, I think there has only been one delivered here in Seattle, not sure if it is sold or still at the dealer, so it may not be as nice as the older versions like the SO37 etc. Gut tells me, taking a 409 off shore should not be an issue! Unless you want to go around cape horn...........now on a bad day you might have an issue with the 409!

marty
Marty, I share your reasoning and am telling myself these are good reasons to purchase the new boat from the European manufacture. Unfortunately, from reading here on Sailnet, it seems that the European Rating means a little. I am desperately seeking the true. Yes, my current time share boat - SO37 is Rated A for 8 persons. With my limited storm sailing experience, I only encountered 6 ft sea with 30 kn wind, The Jeanneau pounded like crazy from each wave, when I was in the V-berth, it sounded like someone pounding with a sledgehammer and the boat was going to fall apart.

OTOH, I sailed in a Tartan 38 and Southern Cross 35, with a similar seas, there is no pounding. We were threw around a lot, but the boat was quiet.

I am not sure what does it mean, is it the weight of the Jeanneau or its hull design, or combination of both. I hope someone can shed some light on this, may be from someone who has delivered boats for awhile.

I like European design and their forward thinking. They are more likely take on newer concept and push the technology, while American boat builders are smaller and older, very little or no R&D funding at all. They continue to build the boat what they know a few decades ago.

It is certainly not an easy process to make a decision. but I want to make an informed decision with balanced compromises.

Thanks for taking time to read this thread and help my purchase.
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  #15  
Old 06-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I am not familiar with the 409. Have not seen her or sailed her. But I am curious how you build a 40' boat at $200k? Wow. The C400's new will run you well into the 200s with your final bill likely into the low 3's after you get everything you want on them. At least that is what a dealer told me.

I would at least look at a Bene 40 and a C400 for comparrison. I like the Sabres too. But I don't think you will touch any of them in the 200k range... not realistically.

Hope that helps. Good luck with the purchase.

Brian
Yes, 200K for 40 footer is very good price, this price also includes a pair of reversible electric Harken winches. I beleive this is due to their aggressive research in developing better manufacturing process - strong, less costly and faster. Cutting down or use cheaper material like using more particle board (IKEA style). Automated their plant so less labor cost. I fear if this trend continues, the small time boat builders will be the beginning of their end. Soon all it left are the mega manufactures and a handful of boutique boat builders who are cater to the high-end market.

Survival of the fittest, the natural selection is brutal, unfair and discriminating for those being replaced.
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  #16  
Old 06-30-2011
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Some of the pounding will be as mentioned, a round bottom vs a flatter bottom, this is usually more upwind directly, than other points of sail, at least with my mid 80's Jeanneau, which has a flatter bottom compared to other boats of the time. I will also admit, not sure if my boat at 30' has an A rating, as it did not exist at the time, the ratings were from 1-5, and I have a 2, but all the other parts and pieces that seem to make boats A's.

Also, not sure how many truly try to sleep in a V berth unless at the dock. Most will sleep in an aft or mid boat area bunk of some sort. Try these area's next time you get a chance. It is not as noisy etc.

That particle boat part......not sure ALL the wood is particle. The actual finish is particle teak. Behind it, from what I recall is plywood, as has been done in Jeanneau's and many other European boats due to lack of wood supply for many year. Including mine. Altho the final show layer is solid, not the current particle/shavings made in line and glued to the plywood base.

Yes, everything interior wise is made in a computer auto plant, with laser cutters etc. Then the interior parts are shipped from that plant, to the boat installation plant in France or SC on a pallet.

The BIGGER manufactures do seem to be European in nature, as we lost many in the 70's and early 80's due to the boat tax. The industry in NA has for the most part, NEVER rebounded, nor with the current depression in the states, it will not for many years to come to the level it was in the 60's and 70's. We will pretty much be boutique building boats. At least in Europe, you have both mega, and boutique builders. Oz seems more boutique'ish as does Africa and SAmerica may be the same.

marty
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  #17  
Old 06-30-2011
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I only experienced the pounding once on our Jeanneau, it is dead iron up hill wind and confused sea. I was just barely able to maintain 3 to 4 kn with 2000 rpm.

The pounding was so severe that I can hear anywhere on the boat. I was not trying to sleep in V-berth, just try to get my fouled weather gear out. The pounding was fearful.

According to Jeanneau, the panel is particle board with veneer and solid wood trims. I am not sure if the particle board they use are marine grade or IKEA grade. If it is the IKEA grade, 10 min submerge in water will totally destroy the interior of the boat.
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  #18  
Old 06-30-2011
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I've felt that pounding before, only we went from 6 to 2 knots, with a tide going against some very square waves, due to the wind and current fighting ea other! A lot of boats were pounding in those seas from comments from YC members coming home from a cruise. Other than the 40-50' 30K disp powerpoats, they drove thru.

marty
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  #19  
Old 06-30-2011
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FWIW I've sailed one in light air. A friend of mine has the dealership in Riverside NJ and I help him out at shows by answering questions, helping on demo sails etc. I spent 4 days sitting on the one at the Annapolis Show as well. Here are some comments take them or leave them.
1. The boat sails very well in light air, under 10 kts. She tacks cleanly and quickly with a light feel to the helm. The running rigging is set up well and once you get used to the clutches they use on the jibsheets tacking becomes a one person, easily managed job. Simply lock the one on the leeward side prior to tacking. Then when you release the working sheet and take up the other side the clutch prevents the sheet from pulling out of your hand. Tacking becomes a breeze. It gives you the impression you're sailing a smaller boat in that the smaller headsail is easier to handle and the clutches take the strain off the sheet. If you wrap the sheet on the winches quick enough you don't need a winch handle. I've also sailed the Beneteau 40 and own a B43, the difference is notable. Winches are in easy reach of the helm behind the wheels. The continuous mainsheet system also took some getting used to but once you did it works quite nice and is easy to trim. I can't say if she'll pound or not in rough seas. I was a bit concerned that my B43 would as it too as a very flat aft section. I'm happy to say she normally does not, nor does the B40. I say normally since given the right conditions it can and will but it's easily managed by either bearing off or adjusting speed.
2. The cabin is very comfortable. After sitting in it for 4 days I can say the seat height for my 5'9" frame is about right. I usually have an issue with the edge of the cushions cutting off the circulation in my legs but not this time. The seat cushions were also nice to sit on. The cabin is fairly roomy which was tested during the show with a constant flow of people through it. Cut it back to two couples and I think it would be fine. The aft head was roomy with a very nice sized shower area. Something the wife will like. The storage compartment accessed via the head is also unheard of on a 40' boat. While the forward berth his nice and roomy, the aft seemed tight and would likely be the guest or kids quarters.
3. The swing down transom gives the stern a nice clean look but it is a bit heavy. Not sure the wife or kids will be up to dealing with it.
4. The price you were quoted with the electric, reversing winches sounds pretty good. If I recall correctly the base proice at the show was $186K.
5. If you're dealing with Bay Yacht make sure the price is not based on the Boat As A Business deal. If you're interested in comparing numbers I can get you a name and number to call. The dealer for the northern bay is Riverside Yachts, Riverside NJ. While some manufacturers maintain a strict territory Jeanneau does not.
6. Jeanneau is building a number of their boats at the Beneteau factory in Marion SC. The factory is set up to build any boat on the same production line. It's one of the ways they can keep the costs down.
7. if you can test sail the Benny 40 and the 409. Both should be available in Annapolis. They are definately two different boats.
I hope this helps. Not sure I can think of anything else but feel free to ask or PM me. And BTW I do not work for my buddy I have a full time job unrelated to the marine industry, but enjoy sailing other peoples boats, especially new ones
Mike
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  #20  
Old 07-01-2011
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I see someone from Riverside on the Jeanneau owners forum frequently ansering questions, along with working on selling boats. I believe Xanshin who posts here, and moderates over there along with myself and the owner of the site has a new 57 on order to be used at the Annapolis show. I'm going on memory here to a degree.

Nice report Mike. I had not seen anything but from a rag at the time. malcolm the owner of teh JO site, did get a ride on a 409 and posted some opinions too.

Marty
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