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  #21  
Old 07-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
Yes, 200K for 40 footer is very good price, this price also includes a pair of reversible electric Harken winches. I beleive this is due to their aggressive research in developing better manufacturing process - strong, less costly and faster. Cutting down or use cheaper material like using more particle board (IKEA style). Automated their plant so less labor cost. I fear if this trend continues, the small time boat builders will be the beginning of their end. Soon all it left are the mega manufactures and a handful of boutique boat builders who are cater to the high-end market.

Survival of the fittest, the natural selection is brutal, unfair and discriminating for those being replaced.
Well, I would look at it with a pretty skeptical eye. If they can produce a solid, well made 40 footer in that range that would be great. My concern is where they have cut corners. The issue with sailboats is that a huge percentage of the boat is from thrid party manuacturers. Not much you can do to lower those costs but to buy in bulk and even then is small decrease in prices. But with oil at a high, thus the cost of resin at a high, I still am trying to figure that out. How thich are those hulls? How much E glass or kevlar are they putting in it? What is the keel made of?

THe price included is full sail away or is that only the base? THere seems to be a trend in some manufacturers to put out this base price that does not include little things like sails (I am joking, kinda) or basic equipment that will be needed. Apples-apples.

Again, I have NOT seen the boat or sailed it. It is nice to read the positive remarks made here about it. I have long been frustrated with the very high cost of boats as it pushes away a lot of sailors. But the margins on sailboats is very thin so somehow, somewhere, there are cuts. Its not my money - I already own my boat!!! SO I really don't care, but I am saying to really do a hard comparrison between similar boats, including bene, Catalina, and Hunter. Buy the best boat for your needs, not the cheapest. Cabinetry especially is one of those things that manufacturers love to skimp on as it looks good in the boat show, makes teh boat nice and airy since they just put in shelves, but is not practical except at the marina and is HELL to put in and make look good afterwards. If they are using too much cheap veneer, it will peel in a few years (or less) and looks terrible and is expensive to fix and make look. Forget selling your boat if the veneer is peeling away or water damaged. Other things that come to mind are wire runs and plumbing runs, how deep is the bilge (very important on flat bottom boats because when on a long tack you want that water running to the bottom of the bilge), engine accessibility especially for the oil filter and impeller, expandable panel (another area where they love to skimp as electrical is expensive), inner spring mattresses (Will never go back to foam pads), basic electronics like depth, wind, speed, and VHF. DO they have a core sample from the hull and where was it taken? Is the hull cored, where does it stop, why? Tankage both water and fuel (important because this is not easily changed). THose are a few ideas of things to compare against boats.

THere are also some amazing deals on used boats for 200k that are worth considering. GO shop 200k around and see what you can get and as you walk through that boat, don't get turned on by all the nice new shinny aspects of it. Dig deep into it and question why it is so much cheaper. Ask Catalina why it is. Ask Hunter, etc.

Hope you take my message as it was meant - not harping on the boat, just wondering how?

Brian

PS If it comes with inmast furling, you will not use the electric winches much if at all. We have a rule not to use them at all on ours as it is a great way to make a jam. If slab reef, you will use them to raise and lower main and to hoist people up the mast.
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
... They also have a program that we can charter the boat before we commit. It will be wonderful if we can charter for two weeks for an off-shore trial. For all indication, I believe the 409 is made for coastal and bay sailing. My question is will she sail comfortably and take care herself like HR39, Sabre 40 or Caliber 40 LCR in the rough sea.
Yes, that's what you should do. I guess they will charter the boat to you at a special price. I always do that with the boats I am interested. These year I will be sailing a Salona 41. If they work like Salona they will make you a 30% discount or if you don't get a special deal they can deduct the price if you buy the boat. On Europe now that the Summer is on they are offering huge discounts on the boats they have for sale, till 20%.

Countdown to summer sailboats - Jeanneau Yard

This boat is different from the HR 40 (the Caliber 40 is really an old design and the 402 is another generation boat). The HR 40 has a modern hull but heavier stronger and with a bigger D/B ratio even if I think that the Jeanneau has a bigger percentage of ballast on the bulb. The Jeanneau is a much faster boat but the HR gives a sense of stability and safety superior to the Jeanneau.

The overall stability of the HS 40 is bigger (heavier boat) and that sense of safety is also given because the boat has proportionally a lot less sail than the Jeanneau. You can always sail the Jeanneau with one reef and you will go probably faster than the HS 40 and will have the same sense of stability and safety.

The HR 40 is already prepared for offshore work. All that the 409 needs for that is a removable stay and a small stay sail and to ask them to have a 3º reef on the main ( non automatic reefing - 2 lines). That is not made by the factory but a good dealer would take care of that without any problem. All the reefing will be done from the cockpit and the boat is already prepared for solo sailing. The boat has a good stability with a good B/D ratio: 30% on the 2.1 bulbed keel. For instance the Benetau 40 has 25%.

If your cruising grounds permit buy the one with 2.1 m draft. That is the boat that the designer has made as standard. If you want to circumnavigate at the right season and at the right latitude I don't think you have any problem with this boat. I wouldn't but in this case that has more to do with the sailor then with the boat

http://www.bluenoseyachts.com/SO%20309.pdf

Only recently they have changed the standard draft to 1.55. The 2.10 is a better balanced sailing boat.

Bottom point: If you have any doubt about the boat you want you should just charter both boats for week. That should give you the means to decide. In my opinion the 409 is the best European big production 40ft mainstream cruiser on the market.

YouTube - ‪New Jeanneau yacht 409 Sailboat start to delivery day sail B‬‏

YouTube - ‪Sun Odyssey 409.mov‬‏

If you want to compare it with an American boat just try the Hunter 39. I don't like it but that is a matter of opinion. I think the Catalina would be a more fit opponent but the boat is much more expensive.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 07-01-2011 at 09:07 AM.
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  #23  
Old 07-01-2011
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HELLO PAULO!!! Hope you have been doing well.

Brian
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2011
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Thanks Brian,
Still waiting but things seem to be on the right course.
Next moth no matter what I will take some vacations, I will be touring with my family in France and Italy. We will sail 15 days on a Hanse on the Balearic Islands than a week on a new Salona, in Croatia.

And how are you? What is the sailing program for this summer?

(RockDawg, hope you don't mind this out of the subject detour)

Regards

Paulo
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  #25  
Old 07-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

(RockDawg, hope you don't mind this out of the subject detour)

Regards

Paulo
Nope, I don't mind Actually I am glad you and others came by to help the confused 'ME' out. LOL.
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  #26  
Old 07-01-2011
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[QUOTE=MJBrown;746054
4. The price you were quoted with the electric, reversing winches sounds pretty good. If I recall correctly the base proice at the show was $186K.
5. If you're dealing with Bay Yacht make sure the price is not based on the Boat As A Business deal. If you're interested in comparing numbers I can get you a name and number to call. The dealer for the northern bay is Riverside Yachts, Riverside NJ. While some manufacturers maintain a strict territory Jeanneau does not.
Mike[/QUOTE]

Mike, thanks for the lengthy writing. Your comments are very helpful. Yes it is Bay Yacht I am referring to. I'm still waiting for them to get back to me. In their ad on Yachtworld, it says:

------------------------------------
Jeanneau 409, new for 2011. $206.6K

This is an approximate, sail away price, fully commissioned, in Annapolis. (Ask about special Annapolis boat show demo, coming to Annapolis, with an even better price and early delivery) including full commissioning package, electronics (ST-60 tridata and wind instruments with repeaters, ST-6001 autopilot, ICOM M422 VHF. Many factory extras... shoal keel available, and more. Price includes: Full commissioning with C.G. pkg. Launched, in the water, and ready to go. Can be completely customized with local options, including air conditioning, generator, custom cockpit canvas, whatever you need!
----------------
If I don't get a call back from them by mid week next week, I will call other dealers. If I have to chase them to put money in their pocket, they don't need my business.
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  #27  
Old 07-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

1. My concern is where they have cut corners. The issue with sailboats is that a huge percentage of the boat is from thrid party manuacturers. Not much you can do to lower those costs but to buy in bulk and even then is small decrease in prices. But with oil at a high, thus the cost of resin at a high, I still am trying to figure that out. How thich are those hulls? How much E glass or kevlar are they putting in it? What is the keel made of?

2. The price included is full sail away or is that only the base? THere seems to be a trend in some manufacturers to put out this base price that does not include little things like sails (I am joking, kinda) or basic equipment that will be needed. Apples-apples.

3. Again, I have NOT seen the boat or sailed it. It is nice to read the positive remarks made here about it. I have long been frustrated with the very high cost of boats as it pushes away a lot of sailors. But the margins on sailboats is very thin so somehow, somewhere, there are cuts.

4. THere are also some amazing deals on used boats for 200k that are worth considering. GO shop 200k around and see what you can get and as you walk through that boat, don't get turned on by all the nice new shinny aspects of it. Dig deep into it and question why it is so much cheaper. Ask Catalina why it is. Ask Hunter, etc.

Hope you take my message as it was meant - not harping on the boat, just wondering how?

Brian
1. In principal, I agree with you in many fronts, but I disagree the boat industry has narrow margin. May be the margin is getting smaller for the small guys because his markup over big markup . The last guy has nothing to be made. With the size of Jeanneau/Benneteau, they should have enormous negotiation power on product they use. They get it cheaper than those by Sabre or Caliber. I think and I hope the reduced cost of the 409 reflect on the saving on labor cost - better production process for more rigid and light hull by using grids. Yes, the glass is thinner, but if it will hold the boat. I don't really care. Yes, we heavily rely on their engineers to make that decision for us. Jeanneau is here for the long haul, there is not reason for them to cut their own throat.

Having said that, I hate to see IKEA type of furniture in the boat, but what is the other alternative when our resources are diminishing.

Despite I am fond of the 409, I still have many concerns. Therefore I have not diminished my effort to look at old boats. For some reasons, I have no hesitation to take a well care of HR, Sabre, Caliber or Valiant to cross the ocean any time. But I can't say it for 409.

I started reading the post on the Jeanneau owner forum last nite. Many have expressed that their Jeanneau handled very well in heavy seas. I am happy to hear that, but I need to hear more.

Quote:
Hope you take my message as it was meant - not harping on the boat, just wondering how?
I consider everyone's comment seriously. It will be me who suffers when I make a mistake. Therefore I don't make an emotional decision. When I list all the pros and cons of each boat and its intended purposes of the boat, there is only one answer will pop out regardless.

I will take my time.
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  #28  
Old 07-01-2011
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Quote:

This boat is different from the HR 40 (the Caliber 40 is really an old design and the 402 is another generation boat). The HR 40 has a modern hull but heavier stronger and with a bigger D/B ratio even if I think that the Jeanneau has a bigger percentage of ballast on the bulb. The Jeanneau is a much faster boat but the HR gives a sense of stability and safety superior to the Jeanneau.

The overall stability of the HS 40 is bigger (heavier boat) and that sense of safety is also given because the boat has proportionally a lot less sail than the Jeanneau. You can always sail the Jeanneau with one reef and you will go probably faster than the HS 40 and will have the same sense of stability and safety.

The HR 40 is already prepared for offshore work. All that the 409 needs for that is a removable stay and a small stay sail and to ask them to have a 3º reef on the main ( non automatic reefing - 2 lines). That is not made by the factory but a good dealer would take care of that without any problem. All the reefing will be done from the cockpit and the boat is already prepared for solo sailing. The boat has a good stability with a good B/D ratio: 30% on the 2.1 bulbed keel. For instance the Benetau 40 has 25%.
Paulo, this is very encouraging if I can do small mods on the 409 to make it safer.

Since the 409 comes with furling main, if I opt for a batten main, I should able to save some money for other things. I need to add some more hand hold, lee cloth for sleeping, red light for night vision. I know they have an option for Performance sail.

Quote:
If your cruising grounds permit buy the one with 2.1 m draft. That is the boat that the designer has made as standard. If you want to circumnavigate at the right season and at the right latitude I don't think you have any problem with this boat. I wouldn't but in this case that has more to do with the sailor then with the boat


Only recently they have changed the standard draft to 1.55. The 2.10 is a better balanced sailing boat.
I will think hard. If I take 2.1 draft, I may have to give up sailing to Bahama.

Quote:
If you want to compare it with an American boat just try the Hunter 39. I don't like it but that is a matter of opinion. I think the Catalina would be a more fit opponent but the boat is much more expensive.

Regards

Paulo
Unfortunately, there are only a few American sailboats I like that I can afford. If buying a new boat, the European boats are the only option. Likewise, German cars give the best performance/dollars. It will out last me. hahahaha

P.S. BTW, What is the draft of the river/canals in Europe. The one near Bordeaux which snakes thru inland and out to Mediterranean Sea near Spain. I think it is just 5 ft, right ? It is in my bucket list, sort of.
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Last edited by rockDAWG; 07-05-2011 at 10:31 AM.
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  #29  
Old 07-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
...

I will think hard. If I take 2.1 draft, I may have to give up sailing to Bahama.
You mean, big sailboats don't cruise in Bahamas? All of them have more than
2.40m draft. Yes you will cruise, with some limitations, but less than millionaire's sailboats

The biggest difference from the 1.55m draft will be a better upwind performance, less leeway and a better overall performance (the short keel is heavier). Probably the more important difference will be the leeway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
...
..
P.S. BTW, What is the draft of the river/canals in Europe. The one near Bordeaux which snakes thru inland and out to Mediterranean Sea near Spain. I think it is just 5 ft, right ? It is in my bucket list, sort of.
Hum, I don't have a clue. I prefer to cruise mainland Europe in a roadster

On the canals you don't sail, you have to take down the mast and a sailing boat is not the right boat to do the channels. Well, not my cup of tea anyway.

Cruising Europe yes, but on a fast car on twisting mountain roads with lots of stops in nice villages. The Alps and Pyrenees have great mountain roads and incredible villages.

Regards

Paulo
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  #30  
Old 07-05-2011
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I will consider the deep draft. It is a 2.4 or 2.1 m. I hope it is 2.1M or 6.9 ft.

BTW, with the swimming platform and the current stern shape of the 409, it will be difficult to instill wind vane steering.

Quote:
On the canals you don't sail, you have to take down the mast and a sailing boat is not the right boat to do the channels. Well, not my cup of tea anyway.
Hahah... I am well aware of it. It is hard to tack with the canal being 10 M wide. . But for the Americans, it is cool to the sailboat through Paris, etc.
Quote:
Cruising Europe yes, but on a fast car on twisting mountain roads with lots of stops in nice villages. The Alps and Pyrenees have great mountain roads and incredible village
We did that in 2008 when we took an European delivery of our BMW. We drove through Germany, Austria, Italy (Milan), Geneva, France. We dropped our vehicle in Paris. We had a great time, but regret that we did not go to Easter Europe.

It is too bad the Porsche's European delivery sucks. Otherwise I will consider getting one. As I am getting older, I lost much of my desire in 911. There is no place to drive in the States except on the track.
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Last edited by rockDAWG; 07-05-2011 at 02:51 PM.
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