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  #41  
Old 08-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
I talked to the owner and went aboard an '87 34 MK11 that came into my yard to haul out on Saturday..it looked like a brand new boat... which is really what you want to see when you buy a 25 year old boat...How much did the PO love her...regardless of what model or manufacturer you choose....and then does it call to you..
I'm with you Tempest...this would be ideal. Find the fussiest 1980's production boat owner around and then make him/her an offer.
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  #42  
Old 08-29-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand River Raider View Post
I'm with you Tempest...this would be ideal. Find the fussiest 1980's production boat owner around and then make him/her an offer.
You would not be the first to do this. We managed to find an original owner when we bought ours 6 yrs or so ago. Yes there were a few things we needed to do.....well.....maybe a lot in the end, more than I thought we would do. But so goes the battle! In the end frankly, from talking to a number of folks, seems like it takes about 3 yrs to get the boat the way YOU want it. Some were even asking the how many more $$$$ spent than the initial cost, not in xx%, but 2-3-4times the amount the boat cost! I think I am in the what seems more ave than 10-30%, more like 200-300% of the initial boat cost! I ahve about 30-50K into my boat, initial cost was $22K.

With this in mind.......we have replaced ALL the cushions and foam, someone else did the work, added 4 head sails, new main, spinaker. one head sail and main are string style, ie a UK tapedrive main and a Ullman fiberpath 155, for the racing. a 140 cruise genoa, 110 and a 130 drifter for the les than 5 knot days we race in. Another BIGGER maxed out spin vs one in the 85% max out range is in the horizan, and a 80'ish% of foretriangle headsail for the 30-45 knot windy days we race in. All new sheets, halyards etc in something more than sta-set. IE for the most part Sampsons XLS Extra-T, which is 2-3 times the cost of stayset. Mainsail cover to replace original, same with same sails for that matter! The original foam back vinyl hull/headliner was shot, I did that myself, but still had 2-3K in materials and probably 60-80 hrs in my time etc. Along with new varnish on ALL interior teak wood! the speed guage did not work, so a Raymarine triple pack of a knot, depth and anomommeter was installed at about $1500 for the kit, and another 750 or so IIRC for the labor. It all adds up to more than 20-30%, in my case, more like 200-300%! Then again, I am into my boat less than a new one, I know what is here. I'm enjoying the boat in the mean time. As I type, I remember more things, like the head, hoses to the tank.......

Marty
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  #43  
Old 08-29-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manhattan08 View Post
Always consider the boats that are still in production. There is a reason why Hunter and Catalina are still being built today while some of the others are not. Also, you will get better customer service from a manufacturer that is still around today versus one that went out 20 years ago.
The implication being that the best product survived while the inferior ones fell by the wayside? I hope that's not what you're saying. To digress, there were several manufactures now defunct that produced outstanding boats that are still considered superior to the boats you mention. I can think of a half dozen immediately off the top of my head. Customer service? Unless you're at the factory, manufacturers and brokers hire out local contractors to do their repair and commissioning. The same labor pool is available to anyone regardless of the age or manufacturer of their boat.
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A quality boat despite company death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
The implication being that the best product survived while the inferior ones fell by the wayside? I hope that's not what you're saying. To digress, there were several manufactures now defunct that produced outstanding boats that are still considered superior to the boats you mention. I can think of a half dozen immediately off the top of my head. Customer service? Unless you're at the factory, manufacturers and brokers hire out local contractors to do their repair and commissioning. The same labor pool is available to anyone regardless of the age or manufacturer of their boat.
I'm interested in the names of those half dozen. Would they include Pearson and Ericson? Cape Dory? (Yes, I know that is only 3 )

And this was what I was trying to get at in my OP about build quality. The reputation seems to be that some of the builders, even if no longer in business, produced a superior product to some of the current manufacturers. I'm still trying to grasp exactly what superior build quality refers to and perhaps I'll have to fall back to the car analogy that is sometimes used to rank boats...however incomplete that may be.

GRR
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  #45  
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Exponential investment in sailboats

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
You would not be the first to do this. We managed to find an original owner when we bought ours 6 yrs or so ago. Yes there were a few things we needed to do.....well.....maybe a lot in the end, more than I thought we would do. But so goes the battle! In the end frankly, from talking to a number of folks, seems like it takes about 3 yrs to get the boat the way YOU want it. Some were even asking the how many more $$$$ spent than the initial cost, not in xx%, but 2-3-4times the amount the boat cost! I think I am in the what seems more ave than 10-30%, more like 200-300% of the initial boat cost! I ahve about 30-50K into my boat, initial cost was $22K.


Marty
Wow, you sure have done a lot to your boat. The investment is exponential, but as you say you are enjoying the boat and the process and that is the important thing. I'm hoping to be in the 10-30% myself.

GRR
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  #46  
Old 08-29-2011
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GRR,

My cost frankly, "IS" in line with what others locally have spent at times from my marina/yc etc. this 10-20%, ie for me $2-4K of an initial coast of $22K. The problem is, some of the items cost $X, no matter the size/cost of the boat. So if you need a knotmeter, $400-600 for the unit! If you bought a 5K boat, your now at you budget for redoing things.

Frankly, depending upon the what you need to do, 20-30K would not surprise me, so that would be more in the 40-60% of your budget with out looking back on some posts. That 20-30K does not go out the door overnight, it was over 3-4 yrs, and STILL going out the door!

HERE is a link for the interior redo on the jeanneau owners site. then a link to the head redo is at the bottom of the aft stateroom redo too. Then you can see from the aft room, the change from the stock cushions to the new ones in the article. SO yes, we have done a lot, but compared to some, with in reason too.
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Last edited by blt2ski; 08-29-2011 at 10:02 AM.
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  #47  
Old 08-29-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand River Raider View Post
I'm interested in the names of those half dozen. Would they include Pearson and Ericson? Cape Dory? (Yes, I know that is only 3 )

And this was what I was trying to get at in my OP about build quality. The reputation seems to be that some of the builders, even if no longer in business, produced a superior product to some of the current manufacturers. I'm still trying to grasp exactly what superior build quality refers to and perhaps I'll have to fall back to the car analogy that is sometimes used to rank boats...however incomplete that may be.

GRR
Superior Build Quality is sort of like checking out the footings and foundation of your proposed house purchase before getting seduced by the new kitchen appliances.

On a boat, check out the hull-to-deck joint. Ports framed in plastic or ss/aluminum. (Bronze on classic designs like the Cape Dory)
If the hull is cored, you need to have a good survey to see if water intrusion has compromised the designed-in strength.

While a "stick built" interior like inside the the Sabre's and Ericson's is wonderful, an interior incorporating more frp modules can be just s strong and durable. Look for complete tabbing of all the interior pieces to the hull. Be a bit wary of "floating" bulkheads, and ancient generalized claims that the builder used "special adhesive" to hold structural stuff together.

FWIW, That system of glassing the inside of the hull and deck together to form a one-piece structure did indeed cost Ericson Yachts extra labor and materials. All the higher-end builders did this or something similar. I still have a nice drawing of the structure of the Yamaha 33 and 36 joint, and there was a lot of effort and engineering that went into it.

Talk to a good surveyor about what to look for. If you can find a copy of Jim Jessie's great video, "How to be your own surveyor, almost", grab it.

All that, and winnow out a lot of "wisdom" you find from opinionated strangers, like even me, on the 'net!


LB
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  #48  
Old 08-29-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand River Raider View Post
I'm interested in the names of those half dozen. Would they include Pearson and Ericson? Cape Dory? (Yes, I know that is only 3 )

And this was what I was trying to get at in my OP about build quality. The reputation seems to be that some of the builders, even if no longer in business, produced a superior product to some of the current manufacturers. I'm still trying to grasp exactly what superior build quality refers to and perhaps I'll have to fall back to the car analogy that is sometimes used to rank boats...however incomplete that may be.

GRR
I'd say Pearson and Ericson make very nice boats that will suit your purposes well. Just find the right example and you should be fine. I've had friends cruise the Great Lakes on everything from a Catalina 27 to a C&C 61. Another friend was the first to windsurf across Lake Michigan in 1980!

Within the whole 'manufacture' discussion are outstanding individual designs. And of course budget not only to buy, but to maintain. Don't underestimate this. Costs rise exponentially roughly every 5 feet.

Of the Ericson boats that deserve special attention are those that were originally built by Olson ( Pacific Boat Works... outstanding glass work!) and the molds sold to Ericson after PBW went out of business: the Olson 34 and Olson 911. The Pacific Boat Works 911(s) is lighter and superior in build to the Ericson 911(se), but are great 30' boats from the board of the late Carl Schumaker. The Olson 34 is a great boat as well. Both the 911 and 34 are hard to come by as their owners are loath to part with them.

Others off the top of my head that haven't appeared in this thread:
Yankee 30, Olson 911, S2 9.1 or 10.3, J-34 or 35c (the nod goes to the 35c), Alsberg Bros Express 34. (Both the Express 34 and J35c where built in very limited numbers and both are very popular with their owners so hard to find.)
Then there are a number of C&C's (pre-Tartan and post Tartan ownership) that are popular, widely available, and have great user group info available. If you had the cash, an older S&S small Swan (36,37, or 38) would be nice, as might a Hinckley Pilot 35 ( a very different and older design than any of the aforementioned) CS made some very nice boats as well that are worth looking at. In the end, the right boat will not only be mechanically and structurally sound, but you'll just like looking at it in the slip! If you don't like the one you're dancing with, you'll always be looking for something else and focus is important. It's not just a boat, it's a life style!

You can find more basic info on the boats mentioned here:

http://sailboatdata.com/
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Last edited by puddinlegs; 08-29-2011 at 08:09 PM.
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  #49  
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Lightbulb

Trivia note: The Olson 911S and the Olson 25 were continued in production after EricsonYachts purchased the tooling in mid '88. The Olson 34 was designed by George Olson (with a lot of inspiration from the O-911S, a Carl Schumacher design) but Pacific Boats built only one before closing their doors and also conveying that tooling to Ericson.
Ericson then built another 38 (or 39, depending on who you ask) before themselves going out of business in '90.

I got to explore most of the below-decks spaces of an 80's Pacific Boats O-911S, and agree that it was VERY well built and finished. My EY-built Olson comes close, but it's still not as detailed out.

OTOH, I'm really glad that I do Not have a cored hull to be concerned about as our boat ages.

"Everything's a compromise," as a friend of mine always sez.

Cheers,
L

ps: while also "loath" to part with ours... we might sell it to buy one of the larger Ericsons.....
We have owned ours since '94... maybe time in our lives for one more boat, or not...

Last edited by olson34; 08-29-2011 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 08-29-2011
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Interesting that the thread has wandered into the dreaded "cost" topic. When we bought Victoria in 2005, she was in good condition but needed updating throughout. She was offered at $95k, we settled on $85k and went to survey which found a rotted bulkhead due to leaking chainplates. We renegotiated and took $10k off, settling for $75k. Since then, we've put in $15k, so that's 20% over six years. I do all my own work so I'm sure that the yard costs would double (?) that number if they were to do it.

The point is that boats of this vintage (1984) WILL require work, regardless of pedigree. I have also found that unless equipment is less than 10 years old, it will need replacing or repair. So don't sweat all the do-dads; they should have NO bearing on your purchase decision because you'll replace them anyway within 5 years. We knew what we were getting into and decided that my sweat equity was worth more than the extra interest payments and thrashing that I would endure if I waited for the perfect boat (which doesn't exist).

So here we are 6 seasons later and the boat is how I want it. So what did I find today? A leaking chainplate. The cycle starts again. The point is to buy quality. The money that you put into the boat will be worth it.

A link to photos and an honest list of repairs follows:

VICTORIA (and her mistress)

Bottom paint
Replace Battery Charger
Replace interior lights
Replace AM/FM w/ CD/AM/FM
Replace GPS/ remove Loran
Remove screen from diesel fuel line
Replace wing nuts w/ aircraft nuts on batteries
Rebuild steps
Zero Compass
Replace mainsail cover, wheel cover, winch covers, bimini cover
Install leather wheel cover
Service Masthead lights
Repair bulkhead in anchor well
Install stainless air vents
Replace running rigging
PSS shaft seal
1Ē diameter shaft x 48Ē length
Cutlass bearing (1 3/8Ē)
Knotmeter paddle wheel replacement
Replace cabin light for Vberth w/Anti-corrosion
Repair port fwd lower chainplate & associated cabinetry
Fill hole in leading edge of keel
Overhaul port side through-hulls. Work all others.
Repair centerboard pendant.
new bilge pump switch.
R/R check valve
Install vented loopfor auto bilge pump
Install bronze A/C discharge thru hull fitting.
Replace clinometer
Install soap & toothbrush holders
New o-rings for depth sounder & knowmeter
install hatch holders on lazarette hatches
Refrubish genoa
Replace starter solenoid
Build new Vberth, Qtr berth, & spacer cushions
New engine tachometer
Fix F/W system. Bypass accumulator, bypass H/W heater.
Purchase & install new radio & home speakers
reapir rotted anchor well bulkhead
Rebuild F/W pump
Refinish cabin sole
Repair fordeck light
Finish interior w/ urethane
Certified water hose & fittings for A/C sea water intake
Build new Bimini
Repair stbd upper lifeline stern rail fitting
Paint hatch frame white/ new gasketing
Replace Raw Water pump
New cushion foam
Replace engine raw water pump
Repair galley delta faucet
Refurbish Wind Guage/ Knotmeter
Replace Fresh Water pump
Strip Bottom, fair keel.
new 7:1 vang
new VHF radio
Fix anchor well wood strip. Replace w/ painted pressure treated wood
Repaint waterline & sheer stripe (Port Kinsale/MM)
Repair Refrigerator
New Lifelines
New-ish biradial 145% genoa/new lufftape
high gloss varnish interior window frames, overhead trim
new VHF handheld
strip/refinish cockpit teak
Rebuild pressure water pump
New genoa
LED masthead & Stern lights
Strip Bottom Paint/fair keel
Dodger
Bimini
life ring
lantern
NAV software & GPS
NAV charts
SS Cowl (2 - 4" round)
SS Cowl (4 - 4" low profile)
swivel reading light (brass)
running rigging
Leather Cover for wheel
high gloss interior handrails
Replace centerboard cable / repair SS pulley/housing
Mainsail
Rebuild traveler 4:1 / new cam cleats
Add blocks & cam cleats for adjustable spin pole track
New fuel guage and sender
New bilge 2000 GPH pump
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