Free Standing Mast - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 09-29-2011
junkrig's Avatar
Both ends are pointy.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 228
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
junkrig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
And Annie Hill's "Badger" is well proven as well.
Thank you, Brian. Annie is a friend of mine and the person who originally set me on the trail to the junk rig.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Seablossom Nor'Sea 27 with modern junk rig.
Just because I like it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 09-29-2011
junkrig's Avatar
Both ends are pointy.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 228
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
junkrig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
junkrig

You are not the only fan of the junk rig I don't think - I have been a fan of Jester - probably the most famous junk rigged boat of modern times, first with Blondie Hasler and then Michael Richey through the years. While not the fastest certainly easy to sail long distances without having to even go outside.
Jester

The first pic is Jester and the second is a similar boat named "China Blue"
You are probably aware that Blondie was one of the two who originally brought the junk rig to the west. He built Jester to compete in the first OSTAR, which he more-or-less invented. He was also the man who developed wind vane self steering for yachts. A clever man in every way.
He and Jock McCleod wrote Practical Junk Rig, which, although pre-camber, is still the Bible of junk riggers today.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Seablossom Nor'Sea 27 with modern junk rig.
Just because I like it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 09-29-2011
junkrig's Avatar
Both ends are pointy.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 228
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
junkrig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't think they are bad but in what concerns me I would not have a boat even without a backstay.

I now that even some fast performance sailboats, like the Pogo 12.50 don't have them. However the racing Pogo 40 (that is very close) have it. I interpret that as for a not so radical utilization the boat can pass without a back-stay but if pushed hard, the back-stay is a necessity.

Then, if it is safer with backstay why I would pass without one?

Regarding free masts I don't see nothing wrong, but if they were better and safer they would be used in racing boats, and I do not mean dinghy's, and they are not. Particularly in solo racing boats were the easiness of maneuver is indispensable. Not one single free mast, to my knowledge, races on the Mini protos, class 40 or Open 60.

Can so many be wrong about what is the better, more efficient and safer way to rig a boat? I don't think so.

Regards

Paulo
Can so many be wrong? Hmmm... do we all use our boats the same? Are so many deciding what would be the best for me? Somewhere down that road is 21st century America: One kind of milk cow. Period. One kind of beef cow. Period. One kind of hog. Period. One strain of corn, period. A few years ago we almost lost the entire national corn crop to a blight. Soon enough, one kind of store, Walmart. Excuse me if I don't want to play.

As you may recall, I began my initial post on this thread thusly:

Quote:
(beginning with some trepidation...)

Aside from the Freedoms, the other common free standing mast rig is the Junk Rig. First let me say that most people who sail a bermudan (pointy triangle) rig have a gut revulsion for the junk rig so I know what I'm getting myself into here.
So I got myself in. I knew what I was doing. Now I'll be getting myself out. See ya down the road.

But don't get me wrong. It's been fun.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Seablossom Nor'Sea 27 with modern junk rig.
Just because I like it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 09-29-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,131
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkrig View Post
...

We do not agree on this and I suspect that we are not going to. That is all right with me and I hope it's all right with you too.

It's one of those debates which is not subject to solving with current evidence. Given the approximately 20 centuries of "traditional" junk rig use and evolution, 20th century photos don't do it. Given my last decade of study I have formed my opinion, and that's exactly what it is... my opinion. You certainly don't have to agree with it, we can still have a nice conversation here.
No, not any problem but since you have said you have studied the subject I went for a better look and I found out you are right.

I would say that older Junks, I would say to the arrival of Portuguese boats to China, In the middle of XVI century, did not have stays, or had movable stays:









After that gradually the advantages of a stayed mast as the ones they saw in the Portuguese boats and after in Dutch and British boats become evident and on the XVIII and XIX century almost all Junks adopted stayed masts except the very small ones:























It's better like that?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-29-2011 at 08:11 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 09-29-2011
junkrig's Avatar
Both ends are pointy.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 228
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
junkrig is on a distinguished road
Pretty pictures. Lots of models, presumably fairly new. Some paintings. Of the newer looking boats, many if not most are diesel driven tour boats with fake rigs on them, of which there are many operating in China and especially Hong Kong today.
Three of your pics are of Duk Ling. One is a stern view in which you can clearly see the prop wash.
Working junks faded from Hong Kong and China's rivers by the mid-1970's. Those last working junks were at the very end of long service lives, some of them nearly 100 years old. They weren't all painted up and shiny.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Seablossom Nor'Sea 27 with modern junk rig.
Just because I like it.

Last edited by junkrig; 09-29-2011 at 09:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 09-30-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,131
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Yes I agree, but the museum miniatures, all have stays, and I believe they are accurate. After all I bet they new their own naval history and their boats better than you or me

For what I can tell for very old pictures (hard to see) they used also movable stays, using them only on the side from where the wind came and putting them on the other side when needed.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-30-2011 at 05:44 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 09-30-2011
junkrig's Avatar
Both ends are pointy.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 228
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
junkrig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes I agree, but the museum miniatures, all have stays, and I believe they are accurate. After all I bet they new their own naval history and their boats better than you or me

For what I can tell for very old pictures (hard to see) they used also movable stays, using them only on the side from where the wind came and putting them on the other side when needed.

Regards

Paulo
Junks are sheeted to every batten, with the usual exception of the top two battens. Many of the old ocean going freighters had a set of sheets on each side of the sail. The "movable stays" you are seeing are sheets.

It kind of appears that we have hijacked this thread, from the OP'S question to a debate over Asian nautical history. Oops.

Regarding pluses or minuses to unstayed masts, I can only say that most of my personal sailing friends sail modern junks with unstayed masts and love them. It is nearly unheard of for anyone to return to a Bermudan, stayed mast rig. FWIW.
dhays likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Seablossom Nor'Sea 27 with modern junk rig.
Just because I like it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 09-30-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,131
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkrig View Post
Junks are sheeted to every batten, with the usual exception of the top two battens. Many of the old ocean going freighters had a set of sheets on each side of the sail. The "movable stays" you are seeing are sheets.

It kind of appears that we have hijacked this thread, from the OP'S question to a debate over Asian nautical history. Oops.

Regarding pluses or minuses to unstayed masts, I can only say that most of my personal sailing friends sail modern junks with unstayed masts and love them. It is nearly unheard of for anyone to return to a Bermudan, stayed mast rig. FWIW.
Sorry CB about this small slide on the theme even if after all we are talking about stayed masts versus unstayed mast. Anyway this will be my last post about Junks.

Sorry Junkrig but I am not completely unfamiliar with Junk rigs and what I am talking about are not stays. These pictures and images are all taken more than 60 years ago, some 80 or more years ago (the miniature is even more old displaying a very curious rig) and they show mostly boats built in the XIX century, except the miniature that shows a really old boat. All of them are working boats, traditional boats.
















As you can see the shrouds I was talking about are not sheets.

I know that many modern small recreational sailboats sail successively with an unstaied Junk rig, as many other sailboats with different rigs do, but that was not my point.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-30-2011 at 11:41 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 09-30-2011
junkrig's Avatar
Both ends are pointy.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 228
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
junkrig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sorry CB about this small slide on the theme even if after all we are talking about stayed masts versus unstayed mast. Anyway this will be my last post about Junks.

Sorry Junkrig but I am not completely unfamiliar with Junk rigs and what I am talking about are not stays. These pictures and images are all taken more than 60 years ago, some 80 or more years ago (the miniature is even more old displaying a very curious rig) and they show mostly boats built in the XIX century, except the miniature that shows a really old boat. All of them are working boats, traditional boats.


Killed













As you can see the shrouds I was talking about are not sheets.

I know that many modern small recreational sailboats sail successively with an unstaied Junk rig, as many other sailboats with different rigs do, but that was not my point.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
With two exceptions the junk sailors I know are world cruisers, and one of those exceptions is me. The other is Annie Hill who, now single and in her fifties, has settled in NZ and cruises the coasts in her 25 foot Fantail, and of course she and Pete cruised Badger over 25,000 miles, mostly in high latitudes, in the Atlantic.
Badger, by the way, still cruises the world's oceans with her new owners.
The others are in Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, the UK, both coasts of the US, and scattered about the open oceans.
So if we assume that world cruisers are "small recreational sailboats and dinghies,"
doesn't that cover virtually every boat represented on Sailnet?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Seablossom Nor'Sea 27 with modern junk rig.
Just because I like it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 09-30-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,131
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkrig View Post
Paulo,
With two exceptions the junk sailors I know are world cruisers, and one of those exceptions is me. The other is Annie Hill who, now single and in her fifties, has settled in NZ and cruises the coasts in her 25 foot Fantail, and of course she and Pete cruised Badger over 25,000 miles, mostly in high latitudes, in the Atlantic.
Badger, by the way, still cruises the world's oceans with her new owners.
The others are in Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, the UK, both coasts of the US, and scattered about the open oceans.
So if we assume that world cruisers are "small recreational sailboats and dinghies,"
doesn't that cover virtually every boat represented on Sailnet?
No, perhaps I have expressed myself wrongly. Sorry about that, I have not any intention of diminish the small offshore sailing Junks. They have a good offshore record

By small I did not want to say that they were not offshore sailboats, but just small sailboats. Most Junks that I know off with free mast have less than 36ft (I call that small for an offshore cruiser) and I don't know any with 50ft. I would call big sailboats anything bigger than 60ft.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-30-2011 at 07:31 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mast Standing Rigging Spreader Replacement. sce56 Gear & Maintenance 2 05-08-2009 11:12 PM
Wire Luff Sails (free standing furling) ranes Gear & Maintenance 2 07-04-2008 03:03 AM
Free Standing Rigs Bardo Sailboat Design and Construction 3 10-20-2007 10:30 PM
hoyt free standing boom dm567 Gear & Maintenance 3 12-28-2006 07:03 PM
Modernizing the Free-Standing Rig Bruce Caldwell Buying a Boat Articles 0 12-25-2000 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:16 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012