shopping for a project boat...

thenrie · #1 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

I'm getting ready to retire and try some of the things I have always wanted to do, but never had the time, money, and location all at the same time. One of these things is sailing. I am looking around for a sailboat project and have been doing a lot of research on various boats I have seen come up for sale in the area (Virginia) and am starting to define my wish list a bit.

I am obviously a beginner, with some boating experience, but no sailing experience to speak of, so I'm not looking for an ocean cruiser. I am quite comfortable in my other hobbies, leaving civilization for days, or even weeks at a time, so I know I want coastal cruising capabilities for more than simple overnighters. I will likely have one daughter as crew, and occasionally up to 5 aboard for day cruises or overnighters, but I expect that often I'll be single-handing. Most of my sailing will be in and around the Chesapeake, with occasional ventures north and south, just to see.

I am also a do-it-yourselfer. I get my warm-fuzzies from taking something that doesn't work anymore and bringing it back to life. No need to warn me about the expense of restoring/refitting an old boat, or informing me that it is less expensive to buy one that has been well-maintained. I am well aware of that, but it just doesn't fit my character. I NEED to fix things. Using them is secondary - a reward for the work; I view the cost as I do a tool. I know. It's a mental illness. A character defect. Whatever. It's how I am. Anyway, from my youth I have developed at least basic skills in mechanics, electrical systems, woodworking, fiberglass, and other things. I have a fully stocked cabinet shop, welding outfit, mechanics shop, and am still collecting tools of every kind. I don't have a tractor yet, but I'm gonna get one (what is it about tractors?)

From my research, I have identified several boats that seem to be common in this area that I think would fit my needs: Pearson 26,28, and 30; Tartan 27, 30, 34c; Sabre 28. I have seen a couple Seafarer 29s for sale as well, but I seem to be leaning to more traditional-looking vessels. I have to say, the boat that has become my favorite (never having stepped aboard one) is the Tartan 34C. Each of the listed boats have been offered for sale for anywhere from $5000 (Pearson 30 Coaster) to "Cost of removal" in my area over the past several months. While the Pearsons seem to be most common, I really have developed a taste for the Tartans. However, I found a Sabre 28, that includes a trailer, that has been sitting unfinished since 2006, that piques my interest as well.

What I'm asking for here, is a discussion of the various virtues and vices of the above sailboats, and their suitability for my desires, as well as their relative values once they are brought back to "well-maintained" condition. Please keep in mind that I will get the training I need, and I will be competent to do the sailing I intend to do, and I will know intimately my boat as I do so, so it would be most useful to me if the discussion were more about the capabilities of the boats than the sailor.

Love the forum and the great information from experienced sailors. I especially love the threads about refits and restorations. I hope to be contributing such a thread soon.

Tony
Stafford, VA

CalebD · #2 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

I've got to say that I like your short list of boats. That is probably because I own a Tartan 27' from 1967. We have a Tartan 27 users group over at yahoo: T27Owners : Tartan 27 Owners Yahoo Group
The T 27' has a very 'shippy' look like some of the Pearson's you mentioned. It is a good sailor and the center board makes it a good candidate for the Chessy with it's thin waters. The cabin is just not very large but it is cozy.
I also like the idea of a T34C you mentioned: TARTAN 34 C sailboat on sailboatdata.com and the Sabre 34' also has a very good reputation.

Many boats from this era also come needing some basic repairs though. Leaky chain plates, soft decks, old rigging, old sails and older engines are common issues you will likely encounter. Most people would not be up to the challenge of fixing these issues but they can be done. Several people in my T27 group have re-cored their decks this year or are in the process of doing so.
Many of us still have older Atomic 4 engines in our boats that have required us to become familiar with keeping the old 'beastie' runing. My A4 is from 1967 as is my boat. The forum at Moyer Marine is extremely helpful with any A4 issues: Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians - Powered by vBulletin

It sounds to me as though you are up for the task. Now all you need to do is go and look at as many of the boats on your list as you can - before you buy one.

Good luck.

hellosailor · #3 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

Tony, watch out for the "cost of removal" boats. It usually means the owner isn't mentioning the fact that they know it wold cost more to fix that boat, than it would cost to simply BUY another boat in working condition with zero hours of labor and zero yard bills. It is very easy to get involved with a boat that has unapparent problems, which can include extensive deterioration from water getting into the deck, or bulkheads, or keel damage, etcetera.

I would say that 'stage one' as such would be to really read up on DIY boat surveying, on structural issues, and perhaps to buy your own moisture meter as well.

I'd also suggest that you take some sailing lessons, and build on that by bumming rides on "OPB"s (other people's boats) to get a feeling for what kind of boat you will want. Like Jeeps and Ferraris, they all go down the block but they do some things in very different manners. If you want to sail solo, or with one crew, you want a boat with a small cockpit so everything is within easy reach. But if you want to sail with five friends, you need a MUCH bigger cockpit, and typically a bigger boat, so you're not ripping over each other.

Some boats are light and rely on crew sitting on the rail to keep them upright. Others are heavy and can't really move in light winds. Before you marry one, you want to get some insight into these things and the best way to do that, is to bum rides and see how they sail. Sailing lessons, followed by some "I can crew, do you need any?" is a good way to do that.

If you really want a project...I'm almost afraid to say, look for a classic wood boat. They need incredible amounts of time and money but just about everyone will stop to look over a classic with a mirror-finish varnish job on it. Purely a labor of love, and you've really got to know that before you get into it.

thenrie · #4 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor

If you really want a project...I'm almost afraid to say, look for a classic wood boat. They need incredible amounts of time and money but just about everyone will stop to look over a classic with a mirror-finish varnish job on it. Purely a labor of love, and you've really got to know that before you get into it.

Believe me HS, it's on the bucket list (along with building an airplane, restoring a '70 Mustang Mach 1, and a 300 mile horse pack trip), although I waffle between restoring a classic wood boat and just building one. That's still down the road a ways. Not sure I have enough years left to get them all done. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. My biggest problem is that I know I'm only going to be here in VA for about another three years. Enough time to refit and use a glass boat. Not enough time to build and enjoy a wooden boat of any size. Not sure where I'll end up. The hope is I can find what I want in seaworthy condition and sail as I refit, although the challenge of taking a "free boat" and bringing her back to life is what really lights my lamp. It's almost like saving the whales or something.

Caleb, I have my eye on two Tartan 27s right now, but I'm not quite ready to buy yet. It will probably be January before I'm ready. I really like the look of them, but keep thinking I'd like a bit more room. I started watching for a Tartan 30C after I saw one given away about two months ago. Of course that will never happen once I'm ready to buy.

That led me to look at the 34C as well. The Sabres don't seem as plentiful around here, but I found a 28 on a trailer and started researching them. They have a great reputation as a good sailer and it would really be nice to have her on a trailer, so I could winter her in my yard, next to my workshop!

Tell me a little about your T27 please. Thanks for the links.

kd3pc · #5 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

tony,

if you don't do the Sabre and the price is in my range (cheap) let me know...I had a bigger Sabre and loved it, was going to buy a 28, but the captain said it was too small, so we got the 38...

tommays · #6 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

Tony

Having done it with great results one of the difficulty's you will run into is protecting your basic cash outlay during the restore as its not to tough to drop 15K in materials

I was forced to roll the insurance dice during the restore because no reputable insurance company wanted to be involved with a 1/2 finished boat

By the time your project gets picked up and moved to your location and set in place on proper jack-stands and blocking there is a dollar or three involved

CalebD · #7 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenrie

...snip...

Caleb, I have my eye on two Tartan 27s right now, but I'm not quite ready to buy yet. It will probably be January before I'm ready. I really like the look of them, but keep thinking I'd like a bit more room. I started watching for a Tartan 30C after I saw one given away about two months ago. Of course that will never happen once I'm ready to buy.

That led me to look at the 34C as well. The Sabres don't seem as plentiful around here, but I found a 28 on a trailer and started researching them. They have a great reputation as a good sailer and it would really be nice to have her on a trailer, so I could winter her in my yard, next to my workshop!

Tell me a little about your T27 please. Thanks for the links.

Tony,
If you are considering getting a 'woodie' (as in wooden sailboat) or re-building a Mustang then I'm quite sure you could handle an old Tartan 27'.
I too just love the way they look. Very few other boats where we are have the same lines so ours stands out except for the few 'woodies' which were probably part of the inspiration of Sparkman&Stephens (S&S) who designed this as their first FRP production boat.
I invite you to join the yahoo group we have going that I linked to. You have to join yahoo and get a yahoo id but it is free. I'll personally approve your membership. We have 300+ members and lots of photos of owners boats and boat projects as well as various documentation (owners manuals, reviews, polars etc, etc).
I do think that the T27 would be an outstanding choice for you as it is quite easy to single hand. The only caveat to that is that we have a fairly new roller furling unit (Fulex 100) on our boat which makes deploying the jib and reducing it's size a breeze - pun intended. Changing a hank on jib solo would not be as easy.
Our T27 is in near 'mint' condition with very few previous owner (PO) upgrades as far as the cabin goes. We still have the ice box that many owners have ripped out in favor of more space and extra shelves (I'm quite tempted to do this too).
I've actually done precious little cruising in our boat, mostly day sailing in the beginning and now mostly weekly racing with her. After a few seasons of racing we came in very close to 1st place in our division, beating the likes of Catalina 30, Cal 28, O'Day 27 with a Tartan 30 just edging us out (good sailors on the T30).
The handful of times I have slept on board I have enjoyed it a lot. With an oil lamp burning and thunder and lightning going on outside it was quite cozy in our little cabin. I have had up to 3 bodies sleeping on board but I'd say that that is about the upper limit for inside the cabin; 4 close family or friends but then there is little space for everyone's gear. In fair weather 2 could also sleep in the cockpit.
I'll stop rambling now.

JimsCAL · #8 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

Don't be fooled by the initial price. Consider that plus the cost of the repairs and upgrades. A new engine can be $5000 to $10,000. A new set of sail can be $5000. It adds up quickly. As others have noted, it may be cheaper to buy a nicer boat that needs much less work. That said, this is a good time to look as the season is ending and owners are looking at winter storage bills. You may be able to strike a good deal on a decent boat that will keep you busy over the winter but not drain your bank account and get you sailing in the spring.

SkywalkerII · #9 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

I've got to second Caleb, here. As another T27 owner, hull 249, there's something special about her lines, sailing behavior, and charm. I recently re acquired her after a five year fling with a C&C 34, which I'm still trying to sell. I did total rebuilds of both. Working on the Tartan is easier due to the design- no fiberglass pan or headliner, tabbed in cabinetry/woodwork, size/scale. I'm re coring the deck right now as part of my second re build of her- I'm crazy, too.

I raced her extensively both around the buoys and ocean racing. We were very successful, especially in the ocean because once you crack her off the wind a little, she sails way above her rating. She does well in light air in spite of her displacement and loves a small craft advisory.

I also cruised her with my three kids and loved every minute. Cozy, enough storage for a long weekend, nice size berths. We slept on her every summer weekend for years.

After five years on a C&C 34 which is vastly larger and faster, I couldn't wait to get back on my Tartan 27 and neither can my kids.

For what it's worth.

Skywalker
T27 249

mikefossl · #10 (**permalink**) 10-20-2011

I have to say that boats provide endless opportunities for projects irrespective on how old or how well maintained. It may be better to fine something that is fundamentally sound so that you can pick and choose the projects that interest you. Trying to restore a beater that has been rotting for the last decade can lead to discouragement and a depleted boat fund.