Hello and looking for some advice

[Jim M]

Hi,

I am new to this board and to sailing.
I have lived 30+ years off the shores of lake Erie in Canada and have always loved the water. I loved sailing as a child, but have never owned a sailboat.
I have always dreamed of owning a sailboat.

I have restored classic cars for most of my life and now with 4 kids, I am looking to switch gears and buy a boat.

I think I would be mostly a lazy sailor (I'd like to sail around local islands and areas to enjoy rest and relaxation.) Maybe once after several years of experience I'd like to make a journey to the Caribbean.

So I am looking for a starter boat. Something good to learn with and good for the great lakes.

I love the old Formossa Sea Tiger 41" or the 52" and hopefully some day I will get one.
(I like the classic look)

I am looking at a Grampian Classic 31" and a steel hull 37" Island princess.
Both are said to be water worthy but both will need work.
I plan on getting which ever boat inspected before I agree to buy.

I guess my questions are is there a significant quality difference between these 2 boats?

I am kind a leaning towards the Island princess because of the size difference (better for a larger family) But it has not been in the water for 3 years.

the 31" was in last season.

Can boats this size be towed? Say by a Suburban? or a Van? they look kind a big to me.

Any first time buyer advice?

thanks

[deniseO30]

Welcome aboard Jim!
Keel boats larger then about 26 ft are about all most average trucks can tow. Weight and beam are the problems. My Oday 30 weighs in around 10,000 lbs for example

Steel boat ???? VERY high maintenance! There are island princess's in fiberglass I hope.

Formosa is in the "leaky teaky" family of famous designs built in the far east. "Blue water" Beautiful and very traditional looks. Don't know the Grampain but guess it's a coastal cruiser

I'm sure others will chime in with thoughts and suggestions.

All the best!

[Jim M]

I am seeing a ton of sail boats between 25-40 ft for under 10 grand in my area. (Detroit/Windor and lower Ontario)

Is it even worth looking at a boat priced under 10 grand?

I'm not afraid of work but I don't want to get something that will require years of work before I can get it in the water.

[DRFerron]

Hi Jim and welcome to Sailnet.

Generally, the larger the boat and the less expensive it is, the more work it will need. 40' under $10K? I would seriously question why.

I don't know that I'd consider anything over 30' a "starter" boat and boats that length almost certainly are not easily trailerable.

I agree with Denise about steel hulls: high maintenance.

Grampian 26 may suit your needs.

My advice would be to not be in a rush, do some more research and lurk around this forum. Many people who are in your position have already posted here so you should be able to benefit from their threads.

Good luck!

[boatpoker]

I don't know anything about an Island Princess but I have surveyed dozens of Grampians and they will require a tremendous amount of work to bring back to a reasonable state and they were not too good to begin with. Any production sailboat for 10k in the desired size range will take thousands of dollars and thousands of hours to restore.

Formosa's are for people who love to work on boats, not for people who want to sail them.

If you are paying less than 50k for a 36' boat you are buying someone else's failed project.

[jimgo]

I'm not sure I completely agree with boatpoker's assessment. 3 or 4 years ago, that may have been true. However, these days, there are people who simply don't have the time, energy, and/or money to keep their boat. Some are more realistic about the prospects of a sale and their carrying costs, the depreciating value of the asset, etc., and are willing to sell them below market value simply to get rid of them easily. To be clear, I think boatpoker DOES have a good point - you need to investigate VERY carefully - but deals can be found.

I agree with the advice above about boat sizes. Above 30' is a LOT of boat to handle, especially if you are inexperienced like me. You mention having a family - how old are they? Will they all be sailing with you? Will you be day sailing or overnighting? The reason I ask is that there are many different hull styles and cabin/cockpit configurations. I'm not sure you've given enough info for us to really give you good feedback on your boat choices. For example, assuming you are married with 4 kids, if they are all entering their teenage years, you can assume they are all "adult" size. My Catalina 25's cockpit will handle 6 adults but it gets a bit tight. And 6 is about the max. There are 17-19' daysailors out there that will actually let you fit more people in their cockpit than my boat. But those boats don't have cabins, which means my younger kids (3 and 5) won't have a place to hide from the sun, that's why I passed them up. Another consideration is, if the kids are younger, you can essentially consider yourself a "single handed" sailor, because you and/or your wife will be busy keeping an eye on the kids. Although there are exceptions, once you start getting above 30', the boats get harder to handle as a single-handed sailor. If you tell them more about you and your needs/plans, the great folks here can probably help steer you in an appropriate direction.

I also want to pass on some great advice that I found when I was searching for my boat - buy the boat that meets your day-to-day needs, and charter/rent for other needs. In many ways, it's like buying a car. You buy the car that meets your day-to-day needs, and rent the pick-up or box truck from U-Haul, or the Ferrari from the high-end dealer, when you "need" them. Similarly, a 35-40' bluewater boat may be overkill for a "typical" lake, and the size may wind up making sailing at that location less fun because you are constantly tacking or dealing with shifting winds that make it harder to get the boat up to an enjoyable speed. I do realize Lake Erie is a little bigger than your "typical" lake, but hopefully you get the point.

Take your time, define your needs carefully, then find a quality boat that meets your needs. Using this technique, you're more likely to find a boat that will make you happy and give you a chance to enjoy sailing, instead of feeling like you have an albatross around your neck.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and I've owned my boat for a whole 3 weeks, so what do I know?

[Chris12345]

Depends a lot on the length of the boat (price and weight go up nonlinear with length: three feet more can be twice the weight, twice the price.)

Below 27 feet you should get a VERY decent boat below 5k.
27 to 30 feet: 10k
for up to 38 feet 20 k would sound like a good deal.
at 40 feet and above anything below 30-40 k is dodgy or the best deal ever.

All prices for boats old enough to have stopped depreciating, 20 to 40 years.

Spend a few nights on yachtworld to get a feel for prices, but remember that these are asking prices.

Originally Posted by Jim M

I am seeing a ton of sail boats between 25-40 ft for under 10 grand in my area. (Detroit/Windor and lower Ontario)

Is it even worth looking at a boat priced under 10 grand?

I'm not afraid of work but I don't want to get something that will require years of work before I can get it in the water.

[jimq26]

I double if boatpoker has done any Grampian boat surveys on our Great Lakes. Up here we take good care of our boats. Sounds like he may be out of touch with what's really out there.

There are lots of properly maintained boats on the market. If the previous owners have loved their boats, they will have kept up the maintenance.

Check out the Grampians for sale on this site - FOR SALE

Grampian built over 1000 of the G-26 model, and most of them are still sailing strongly and safely - all over the world.

[Jim M]

Hey thanks for all the great feed back.

I have passed on all the boats I have been looking at recently. I want to make a better choice when the time comes. (hopefully sooner rather than later)

I will try to answer some of the questions asked about me.

I am 35, I have worked 12yrs in the corperate automotive buisness. during that time I have had 4 kids. (14,12,6 &4) I also worked about 60hrs a week and have not had much time for the family.
In the last 4 years I have had a career change and I am sitting rather pretty in a good job with relatively low hours.
My past I had a side job or restoring classic cars and still have several of them left.
So I would actually like to get a boat with some work so I can make it my own, but i want to be able to sail it as I go and not get into a money pit that will require years of work before I can float it.

I have always lived within 100 ft of Lake erie and have always wanted to own a sailboat.

the main purpose of the boat would be for weekend outings around Lake erie, Michigan, Ontario and probally the Karwathas. I would also like to make a trip to the bahamas as the opportuniuty arrises. I would like to take the family on most of my trips, but I would not count them as crew. ( i would also like to beable to sail alone if needed)

My retirement plans (dreams) are to sail the world but they are still some time away and do not have to be figured in on this boat.

With that said I love the classic look of the Bayfields and the Formossas but I understand that most of these boats are not suited for low winds.

One of the things I will probally be doing is sailing to a location and then docking to enjoy the weekend. then returning. Day sailing would probally be minimal. I will not be racing the boat. But at the same time I do not want a slug that will severly limit my weekend/ vaccation location range.

I think ideally I would like something in the upper 20s lower 30s in size. I have been on the floatting bobber boats in the lake and it is too much work to keep a fishing boat on coarse in lake erie so a heavier more stable boat in the lighter class would be a desireable ballance between movement under low winds vs. stablilty.

As a side note I would also like to be able to pull the boat out of the water for the winter to store in my yard or on a local farm. I have contacts with hydralic trailors in my area that can pull upto a 60ft boat. (But 90% of the boats are cabin cruisers or cigar boats so I am unsure if there are any differences for trailering)

My first stop would be the back side of Boblo island just for the day maybe a night. (I have always wanted to sail there since I was a young kid) (I live right across from it on the Canadian side) I would also probally take a trip to Sanduski for a weekend also very shortly after getting the boat.)

What I need to do is hone some of my personal knowledge and/or gleem some valuable information as to what traites are suitable for my needs and which types of boats exhibit them.

[DRFerron]

Originally Posted by Jim M

...
As a side note I would also like to be able to pull the boat out of the water for the winter to store in my yard or on a local farm. I have contacts with hydralic trailors in my area that can pull upto a 60ft boat. (But 90% of the boats are cabin cruisers or cigar boats so I am unsure if there are any differences for trailering)
...

One difference will be the keel. The trailer needs to be able to support the boat so the keel is not damaged.