Winter purchase? Sea trial

[smp]

Hi everyone. I've found a boat that I would like to make an offer on. I understand that offers are conditional on a survey and often a sea trial as well. Aside from seeing how she handles, is there any other reason that a sea trial is very important? I have researched the boat in question at length and I am certain that I would be happy with how she sails. I am in a position where I can make an offer on the boat but I don't know the logistics of these things when it comes to the spring launch. It's November now so launch is a long way off. I don't imagine that making an offer conditional on a sea trial makes any sense at this point as the boat will be tied up in this deal until May! Or is it? As well as my deposit being tied up. I would rather just buy the boat once the survey checks out and call it a day (and stop wasting time on yachtworld every day). Not sure how to handle launch and that first sail .. would be great if the seller could participate and give me a "run down" of the systems etc. This is my first "big boat". So, is it uncommon to make these kind of arrangements with the seller? The boat is being sold by a broker so I will of course ask him these questions as well but he's one of those "low on time" kind of guys and this particular boat is small fry for him as the other boats he has listed are all much newer, bigger and more expensive.

Thanks

[emoney]

You can include anything you like in the offer, doesn't mean the seller has to accept it. I've purchased a few boats without sea trial, so you wouldn't be the first person to do so. As for the first sail, that's a totally acceptable question to ask the broker to request of the seller, but I don't believe it's a contract issue; just a request from one person to another. And don't sell yourself short when it comes to the broker and his time. Sure, bigger boats can net bigger commissions but money talks and (fill in the blank) walks and, as the old adage goes; a bird in the hand can be a really "sticky" situation".....or however that went. Good luck and keep us posted.

[sailingfool]

Originally Posted by smp

.... Aside from seeing how she handles, is there any other reason that a sea trial is very important? ...
Thanks

FWIW, the purpose of a seatrial is not to see how a boat sails. If you line up a the day, the surveyor, the owner, the broker and there is no wind, or a lot of wind...do you think everyone is going to reschedule for a good sailing day? The purpose of a seatrial is to confirm the proper operation of that equipment which cannot be tested on land, primarily the engine and transmission, instruments, radio, head, etc. If you happen to get any insight into how the boat sails, well thats a nice happenstance.

The process:
You sign a deal dependent on a satisfactory survey and the availability of a seatrial. You agree on the escrow amount for the seatrial. $5,000 is a common number.
After the survey, you decide to proceed with the purchase or to cancel. You may re-negotiate the price for the value of any significant defects discovered in the survey.
You pay for the boat, less an escrow held for the sea-trial.
After the seatrial, the escrow is released to the seller, less the value of any significant defect discovered in the sea-trial. Note that you had better know the engine runs OK during the survey, because the escrow doesn't come close to the cost of an engine replacement.

Obviously you can attempt to negotiate something as different as you wish, but the above is the process commonly used.

[DRFerron]

smp,

As far as I'm concerned, there are too many boats out there to deal with a broker who considers his time worth any more than my own. And the boat may be on the lower end of what he likes to deal with, but it's your hard-earned money that you're giving him. I would expect the same respect for it. If he didn't want to deal with buyers for the boat, he shouldn't have agreed to list it.

We, too, purchased a boat at a price the broker didn't normally handle. We were still given the yacht club treatment (drinks, lunch, monogrammed hats with the boat's name) because he took the chance that we'd be repeat customers should we decide to move up. Smart move on his part because I regularly search his site to see what he has listed.

Good luck on your purchase.

[Jeff_H]

I consider a sea trial an essential part of purshasing a boat with an inboard engine and with instruments. I have purchased a boat of a design I knew well enough to know it suited my needs but where a prepurchase seatrial was not possible. We established a very specific list of items which were subject to seatrial, established criteria and fixed value for a failure of those items, (slipping tranmission, unacceptably leaking shaft log, or bad transducer) escrowed money for those items and established a deadline for the testing and release of the escrowed funds. It all went well but then again, nothing failed the test.

Jeff

[smp]

Let me make sure I understand.

- I want to buy the boat now, in late fall.
- I make an offer pending survey and sea trial
- If the survey checks out the transaction is made putting aside 5k in escrow for the sea trial
- six months from now the boat is finally in the water and we conduct a sea trial
- any surprises from the sea trial (gauges not working for example) can then be a negotiating point on the escrow money. ie; $500 to replace said gauge discounted from the 5k (obviously pending agreement)

Am I getting this right? The broker should be able to set all of this up?

And yes, of course the engine, transmission and gauges, that was a stupid question. Would a marine mechanic be able to judge the condition of the engine and transmission while the boat is on the hard? I understand this does not replace a sea trial.

[CalebD]

Originally Posted by smp

...snip...
Would a marine mechanic be able to judge the condition of the engine and transmission while the boat is on the hard?

The short answer is: No. Engines can be run with a boat on the hard but putting them in gear while running on the hard is a big no-no; this could damage the stuffing box or Cutless bearing, both of which rely on water for lubrication. In all likelihood, given your location the engine will have been winterized which means that if you do an 'engine start test' (will it run for 10 seconds or less in neutral?) in the winter then you probably should re-winterize the engine again. I think I'd wait for Spring as diesels do not like running for short periods when they are cold as incomplete burning can result causing other problems.
You don't need a marine mechanic to figure out if the engine has been well maintained or not. Your surveyor should be able to give you a vague assessment of the condition of the engine by just looking at a few things.
- Is the paint job in good condition?
- Are there any signs of coolant leaks near the cooling pumps, heat exchanger (if so equipped)?
- Is there engine oil in the engine? New oil filter?
- Is the engine compartment relatively clean? (absence of oil, antifreeze, and soot is a good thing)
- Is there significant rust on the engine block or motor mounts? (rust on the outside of the engine does not mean that it is rusted on the inside)
- Does the engine wiring harness seem installed in an orderly fashion or is it messy?
- Can the shaft be turned with the engine in neutral?
- Stuffing box and stern tube gland in good condition?
Of course there are a lot of other details to look into. These are just a few that do not require a mechanic at $80/hour to figure out.

Hopefully you can convince the previous owner (PO) to give you a few hours of time in the Spring to show you how he/she has things set up.

What boat make/model/year are we talking about here?

Good luck.

[emoney]

Just a thought, but is it totally out of the question to sneak in a "cool weather" sail? I know it's easy for me to say, I'm in Florida, but if there's a weather window coming up and things aren't frozen over?

[sailingfool]

Originally Posted by smp

...
- any surprises from the sea trial (gauges not working for example) can then be a negotiating point on the escrow money. ie; $500 to replace said gauge discounted from the 5k (obviously pending agreement)

Am I getting this right? The broker should be able to set all of this up?

And yes, of course the engine, transmission and gauges, that was a stupid question. Would a marine mechanic be able to judge the condition of the engine and transmission while the boat is on the hard? I understand this does not replace a sea trial.

This process is the one that any broker would expect to follow.

Surprises from the seatrial are not a negotiating point. Whatever the cost of repair or replacement for a defect in the equipment being checked, comes automatically 100% out of the escrow. If the stove burners dont work, your out of luck, stuff like that was subject to the survey...

Hire an engine mechanic to assess the engine, in particular including a compression test. Many/most surveyors explicitly exclude the engine and rig from the scope of their survey opinion.

[Minnewaska]

As many have mentioned, you must test systems during the sea trial. Does the engine make max rpm under load, for example.

Sea trials are conducted right through the winter here, so I can't see why getting in the water now would be a big deal. Not a day at the beach, just dress for it.