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  #41  
Old 01-14-2012
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As Paulo points out speed is relative. I find it quite a rush when you have a bunch of big boats (some that cost as much as a nice house) in very close proximity jousting at the start. Things happen fast on our slow sailboats then.
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2012
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Any sailing boat is also a sports machine unless you chose not to use it like that and stay in port when you can have fun with the boat.

When you go out downwind at 10k (I hope it would be more in my next boat) with 25/30K wind surfing two meter waves that come slightly sideways you have about the same sensation at the wheel as when going fast on a twisting dirt road with a powerful car or bike: You have to have the wheel in constant motion to control the slides, you know, just like in a car, before it happens you have to compensate and before the slide finishes you have to have the wheel strait again.

Same sensation in a boat you have in a car going fast with the additional pleasure of controlling 8T moving with the tip of your fingers. I guess you will understand by this the importance of having a very sensitive steering.

The difference between a more sportive boat and a heavy boat here can be very important: While on this conditions a lighter sportive boat maintains a very light steering a heavy cruising boat can be hard on the wheel and what is a pleasure on a fast boat can turn up in a muscular tiring effort on a heavy boat, not to mention the much bigger control a sensitive wheel gives.

And if you think this are not very frequent conditions, well in what regards coastal cruising they are not but in what regards crossing oceans in the trade winds they are.

Another similarity I found is with my old racing dirt bike, I mean when you are powering upwind full sails on 18/20K wind. My boat could go at 7K sometimes jumping 3m waves crashing down and most of the time breaking them, I mean water flowing all around. The power that the boat is making is huge and you can feel it at the wheel.

After some hours of this I was amazed to find an intact interior. It is just wonderful that a cruising boat can take this kind of punishment without the interior coming apart.

A good cruising sailing boat is two things, a caravan and a sports machine. There are ones that are more a caravan others that are more a sports machine. For some sailors the sportive part is completely irrelevant, they only want a sea caravan, others only wanted fast cruising boats for racing.

For the ones that like sports and want also a sea caravan for the family the trick is too chose the right combination between interior space and sailing performance and regarding this you can be sure of one thing: The boat that you will see at the boat show with the bigger and nicer interior will not be the best sailing boat, specially in what concerns the space on the front cabin.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-15-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01-15-2012
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Compromise, that's the word I was looking for.

Were leaving Montreal for Toronto this afternoon, talk to you later.
Thanks for the advice.

Andre
I have try to put a picture on my signature and it dosen't work? But you might be able to see a picture of my racecar on my profile.
You drive an old Dirt Bike? I own a 1974 Can Am TNT 175.
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  #44  
Old 01-15-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Any sailing boat is also a sports machine unless you chose not to use it like that and stay in port when you can have fun with the boat.

When you go out downwind at 10k (I hope it would be more in my next boat) with 25/30K wind surfing two meter waves that come slightly sideways you have about the same sensation at the wheel as when going fast on a twisting dirt road with a powerful car or bike: You have to have the wheel in constant motion to control the slides, you know, just like in a car, before it happens you have to compensate and before the slide finishes you have to have the wheel strait again.

Same sensation in a boat you have in a car going fast with the additional pleasure of controlling 8T moving with the tip of your fingers. I guess you will understand by this the importance of having a very sensitive steering.

The difference between a more sportive boat and a heavy boat here can be very important: While on this conditions a lighter sportive boat maintains a very light steering a heavy cruising boat can be hard on the wheel and what is a pleasure on a fast boat can turn up in a muscular tiring effort on a heavy boat, not to mention the much bigger control a sensitive wheel gives.

And if you think this are not very frequent conditions, well in what regards coastal cruising they are not but in what regards crossing oceans in the trade winds they are.

Another similarity I found is with my old racing dirt bike, I mean when you are powering upwind full sails on 18/20K wind. My boat could go at 7K sometimes jumping 3m waves crashing down and most of the time breaking them, I mean water flowing all around. The power that the boat is making is huge and you can feel it at the wheel.

After some hours of this I was amazed to find an intact interior. It is just wonderful that a cruising boat can take this kind of punishment without the interior coming apart.

A good cruising sailing boat is two things, a caravan and a sports machine. There are ones that are more a caravan others that are more a sports machine. For some sailors the sportive part is completely irrelevant, they only want a sea caravan, others only wanted fast cruising boats for racing.

For the ones that like sports and want also a sea caravan for the family the trick is too chose the right combination between interior space and sailing performance and regarding this you can be sure of one thing: The boat that you will see at the boat show with the bigger and nicer interior will not be the best sailing boat, specially in what concerns the space on the front cabin.

Regards

Paulo
Good analogy. Speed is relative. 150mph on my Honda at a race track felt no faster than 40mph does on my Ktm dirt bike on hard mountain trails.

My wife rides her own bike. Calmly, on the street. She won't ride with me.
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  #45  
Old 01-19-2012
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Catalina ALL THE WAY!
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  #46  
Old 02-01-2012
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Having never sailed the Oceanis 41 and given the dearth of detailed reports, it was gratifying to see the Practical Sailor article on the Beneteau. Quite a complimentary review, especially for its intended purpose, which is mine.

Can't wait till it arrives.
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  #47  
Old 02-01-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameso View Post
has anyone here experenced Beneteau's after a few years, do the interiors hold up to wear and tear very well?
We have a First 47.7 that we have had for 12 years. Everything is holding up quite well. The Cherry interior and cabin sole is prone to scratching, so we have to be careful. It probably would have been better to use the corian on the entire galley counter top instead of a portion with cherry wood as the counter top. The corion has cracked though.

If I remember correctly, Beneteau is now using a more durable laminate? Check that.

We beat up the boat as much as one could reasonably beat it up, been through all sorts of weather including the Mac storm this summer with full main.

At strictly sail last Thursday, the Beneteau factory rep told me that the Oceanis and First are built to the same structural standards. The only difference is that one is more of a racer/cruiser and the other more of a cruiser.

You wouldn't know that the boat was 12 years old. The only significant problem we have had is that we had to replace the rudder bearing which fused itself to the rudder sleeve. I am pretty happy with things like the wiring, how everything is well labeled, etc. The cabin headliner is very thoguhtfully done with Velcro and screws.

That said, I saw the Catalina 445 on Sunday, and I was pleasantly surprised. I like that there is no wood on the exterior. We have teak in the cockpit. Looks nice. But, I think I like the grey nonskid of the Catalina better. Things are simple. I didn't see any obvious structural problems. Some of the cabin sole has exposed screws, and that is a little cheap looking, but so what? I tried to check how the chainplates were attached, but I couldn't really tell by feeling my hand into the liner. I have a feeling that all of these modern boats have chainplates designed well in excess of what is necessary - one significant improvement over boats from the 70s and 80s. I know that is a general statement, but that is what it seems like to me.

The water tight bulkead in front is pretty cool. If I remember correctly, the 445 has a cockpit lazzarete hatch that leads into one of the aft cabins? That is interesting, but maybe not for me.

The Oceanis was at the show as well, but I didn't take significant note of it. I paid more attention to the 45. The 45 was nice, I guess, but I still can't get into that "Euro" design.
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  #48  
Old 02-01-2012
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Great thread. These boats interest me quite a bit. Paulo thanks for adding to the mix. I agree with the OP regarding the travelers on the cockpit soles. Besides the obvious it makes me wonder how one would enclose/cover the cockpit with a biminy or something a bit bigger.

I noticed Jeanneau's new 379 has an option for a swing keel and comes with twin rudders, both of which I find VERY APPEALLING in my search for a boat I can travel worldwide in. Does anyone know if Jeanneau would accomodate these same two features in the 409?

Thanks to all for contributing.
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  #49  
Old 02-01-2012
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B41, BSenSe 43, J379, J409 at the Seattle Boat Show right now.
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  #50  
Old 02-20-2012
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BBC1,
I am glad I found your thread as these are exactly the two boats that I am considering and my intended use is similar to yours. I welcome your thoughts on the issues below:

- the cockpit and swim platform on the B41 are beyond compare, however I also felt that the back of the cockpit seats was lower and perhaps would feel less safe while heeling.

- With the 3 cabin model, storage may be minimal in both. What was your conclusion?

- I thought the lifelines were lower in the B41 and going to the bow there was less to hang on to. I then walked the 445 at the boat show and I noticed that the handrails on the cabin top were also fairly low. Do you agree?

- While I agree with you about the use of the chart table, there is something about the more traditional salon in the 445 that appeals to me.

- THe B41 lacks a traveler. Could the arch handle an accidental jibe?

- the bed in the forward cabin looked small for 2 people

Look foward to yours and anyone else's comments
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