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  #11  
Old 12-31-2011
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as i already pointed out, i am in love with the schock products. but... i was really impressed that on the j30, every piece of rigging the designer called for, mr johnson upgraded to the the next size bigger. i believe this is why the boats in the fastnet race came thru without problems.
so here is a good question, do you think the santana could have done the same thing? it sounds like the santana might have a stronger hull, but is its rigging as strong as the j30's rigging?
what wire sizes are used in each boat etc?
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S30 was built with Navtec rod rigging - not wire.

Here are the original design sizes:

Headstay/Backstay/Upper and Lowers #8 cold headed stem rod (min breaking strength 8,200 lbs)

Intermediate shrouds #4 cold headed stem rod (4,700 lbs)

this appears to be typical WD Schock build approach, do the engineering but then make sure "entire boat can be picked up from any one main shroud plus add in a factor of safety"

from the J/30 owners site - http://j30.us/blog/?page_id=322
uppers, lowers, and forestay are "1/4" diameter which the Navtec chart has a 6mm 1x19 (with breaking strength of 6,350lbs)

backstays at 3/16" would have breaking strength in the 4,500 lb range.


Didn't realize there was such a big difference - thanks for asking (wait for the J-bots to start a flame war over this)
(at the shop on Saturday trying to complete year end inventory)

Last edited by WDS123; 12-31-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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  #13  
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i have no doubt that the j30 is a real badass. but i had no clue that the santana was anywhere near comparable. i adore my 525 and will prolly pick up a s20 just because. i just never considered any schock design for any real cruising or island hopping campaign.
it is generally said, that schock designs are made for weekend warriors in protected waters. they are not made well enough to take anywhere beyond the SF Bay because of light design and shotty construction.
i really need to learn about your S30 and S35 designes. what are the differences between S30 and Schock 30 boats? and S35 and Schock 35? are they the same?
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Mike,


Our competition has done a great job of creating the false impression that our boats are under engineered, but the J/30 vs S30 shroud example cited above is a perfect example of the reality vs. marketing hype.

The S/30 shrouds are some 30% stronger, but somehow word on the street was that the J/30 had some super extraordinary over built shrouds.
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I am not so sure that j boats hyped ad much as there is not much known about Schock as there are fewer out there.
One thing i am impressed with is the fact that there is a factory presence right here on this debate. Schock has nothing to lose or gain here. These boats have been out of production 30 years. Who cares?
Obviously Schock does.
They care about this boat as much today as they did three decades ago when they built the last one!
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2011
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The reality is that the J-30 is a better sailing boat all around. While I personally am not a huge fan of J-boats for a variety of reasons not relevant to this particular model, the J-30 was one of the best all-around racer/performance coastal cruiser of its era. And while I am fan of many of Schocks offerings; Santana 35, Shock 30/30, Schockwave 30, the 525 (I'd buy a 525 any day before I would buy a J-24) being some of them, having personally spent a fair amount time on both of these boats, the J-30 is clearly the better built and better sailing of the two, and certainly much more forgiving and easy to handle.

That said, the cored decks on the Schock and the cored hulls and decks on the J-30 need to examined carefully, since both were built at time when cored composite construction techniques were still quite crude.

This thread has a number of misleading discussion points. The first has to do with relative rigging sizes. Conceptually the rig designs of these two boats come from very different worlds. The rig on the Santana 30 derives from the IOR era, and is a mast head rig. Masthead rigs of that era relied on very stiff spars held in column and so produced extremely high rigging loads on the attachment points and hull. Going upwind in a breeze the loads inparted into the attachment points could be 3-4 times the displacement of the boat.

The J-boats has a fractional rig which is actually a more traditional rig, by which I mean the cruising rig that was popular before rating rules like the IOR rule corrupted rig proportions and sail plans. Fractional rigs in general inpart less load into the hull and attachment points than a mast head rig, and this is especially true in the case of a rig like the J-30's which employs an intensionally flexible mast to permit quick depowering. The size of rigging components and deck hardware, therefore do not reflect a reduction in the margin of safety, but only reflect that the lower forces that result from the difference in design concept between the two boats.

The statement, "The S/30 shrouds are some 30% stronger, but somehow word on the street was that the J/30 had some super extraordinary over built shrouds." seems to me to be a classic case of a manufacturer (not J-boat) hyping their product with a misleading statement. The S-30 may have heavier shrouds but their narrower shroud base, stiffer spar, and masthead rig make this necessary if the same margin of safety is to be maintained.

The second gross misstatement is that somehow a solid hull is stronger than a cored hull. While this is a broad generality, Cored hulls are generally several time stronger and stiffer than an equal weight non-cored hull. Cored hulls are less prone to fatigue as well and so in the absense of of core rot (a big 'if') retain more of thier strength over the life of the boat. In the case of the Santana 30 and the J-30, which have similar ballast to weight and hull weight (the Santana Hull and interior being approximately 250 lbs heavier) I would expect the J-30 to have a substantially stronger and stiffer hull than the Santana, and with its more sophiticated internal framing system and lower keel and rig stresses, I would expect the J-30 to hold that strength longer. But of course this is dependent on the hull coring being intact. And that is a big item. Any boat with a cored hull needs to be inspected more carefully by an extremely competent surveyor. (Unlike a deck) if the hull is relatively free of core problems after all these years it will in all probabilty remains so in the future. But if it has problems, the repairs are expensive and likely to be problematic if ignored.

The reality is that the J-30 remains as a popular one design class so there are a lot of J-30's out there which were or are still raced. Many if not most of these boats have been structurally maintained and upgraded over the years. You can find J-30's very reasonable prices with well maintained hulls, modern sail inventory, electronics and deck gear. The same cannot be said of the Santana 30's.

The third mistatement is that the J-30 does not sail well in light air. Like any boat of this era, the J-30's light air performance is not as good as the better designs which followed.

In the Sailing World review of the J-30 they said,

"The J/30 is noted for heavy-air performance. It holds its own in moderate and light air as well, but really excels when it’s windier. The boat has several cruising amenities (standing headroom, enclosed head, large icebox, and hot water) for those who want to dual-purpose."

"Holding its own in light air" is not the same as "being a pig in light air". In fact its the opposite. Having raced a Santana 30 and against Santana 30, I would take the J-30 any time across the entire wind range, but especially at the light and heavy ends of the range.

Lastly as a cruiser, one of the really nice things about the J-30 is that the J-30 starts out being much easier boat to sail short-handed than the Santana, and it can be set up with a cruising sail inventory which allows minimally overlapping heads sails capable of extremely wide wind ranges, making it even easier still.

In contrast, the rig proportions of the Santana result in a dependancy on huge overlapping genoas in lighter air and therefore result in the need for more headsail changes to obtain performance in higher winds due to the headsails being the primary driver in this rig. In a heavier breeze, changing down to a #2 becomes more critical to carry enough sail for drive and still not overwhelm the Santana's significantly lower stability. In my opinion, this makes the Santana 30 a clearly inferior cruising boat from a sailing standpoint. There is virtually no useful difference between the interior layout of these boats except that the J-30 has a little more room and slightly more headroom in the main cabin and slightly less headroom in the forward cabin.

As someone who knows both these boats well, and who does not have a horse in this race, a J-30 in good shape is a no-brainer winner, hands down over a boat like the Santana 30 in equal condition.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-02-2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Syntax
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2011
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Mike,

There is a 3030(?) here in seattle that had a recent rebuld for lack of better term, then the owner found out he has Alziemers....boat is for sale, overall decent shape. Not sue of the overall differences between the 30 and 3030.

The main issue i would see, no matter the makes, is the interior designed to a spec you want and need, same with hull etc. One can get what would appear to be a STRONG boat, lets use a Westsail 32 as an example. but reality is, it will not work for where you sail, will be sailing etc, as it is "too strong/heavy" if that is the right way to put it.

Reality, there may be some better boats for what you want to do, sail etc than these two. Not to say that either is a bad boat. I looked at some J30's before I bought my Jeanneau, the J is a bit bigger, alot in reality, but the Jeanneau is working as well or better for how I sail and use the boat. Altho a 35' version would be nicer. If I do go that size, I'll opt for a mid 90's to early 0x design, or if I can afford one, new. Even tho I could probably get a S35 or equal, the design is older than I want. There are a few on Puget Sound that race/cruise and are quick for there size, and race in a "level 72" class of boat, that include the express 37 and J35, C&C 115 also IIRC, B36.7 is in that range also.

Marty
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2011
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I LOVE these posts debating boats and putting down boats from people who have NEVER been on one...My Lexus IS350 was faster in a straight line than my 911 Carrera 4....it doesnt mean that it was more fun to drive...quite the contrary. So if you are interested in a boat...GET ON ONE! Also dont buy a boat thats great for wind in the Chesapeake when you are sailing in the Pacific Southwest. Also ask WHERE YOU ARE what a good boat would be...talk to the locals. This also helps when getting parts, people to work on the boat, and things of that nature. If you buy something no one knows about then getting help with an older boat may be harder. The San Francisco Bay has very different conditions than the conditions outside Newport Harbor. Since you mentioned blue water cruising, I take it you are near the coast. The S30, is a sturdy and dream of a boat to sail in the Ocean in the conditions I have been in. In rough conditions, its been solid and took more of a beating than I wanted to at the time...lol...In calm conditions, its smooth as butter...I dont plan to be in conditions that sunk a fleet of racing boats....so thats not THAT important to me. Also I would bet that those boats that made it, had some luck and skill of the crew to thank, maybe not really the boat itself....
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And I love boat-builders and newbie boat owners who are defensively defending their boat against someone with no horse in the race, and who has sailed both boats and fully understands their comparative differences based on first hand personal experience with both.
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Defending???? Did I say ANYTHING that wasn't accurate or from MY experience? I just gave some advice as asked by the original poster...
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