W.D.Schock Harbor Series - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 8 Old 01-15-2012 Thread Starter
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W.D.Schock Harbor Series

has anyone seen these boats? the factory sends a very nice news letter out weekly on these. they look like very well thought out boats. the thing i am most interested in is the self tacking jib. why has that taken so long to get here?
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post #2 of 8 Old 01-15-2012
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There's a dude around here that goes by the name WDSchock. He could probably answer some of your questions.
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post #3 of 8 Old 01-15-2012
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A self tacking jib is nothing new.. they've been around forever... they are relatively uncommon because rigs were designed to rely on overlapping genoas for sail area in lighter conditions.

It's difficult to make any sail that overlaps the mast position selftacking, even a modest 110 unless the area is put into a roach (which requires battens and makes furling more problematic)

As was discussed briefly on PCP's excellent Interesting Sailboats thread, there is a trend towards rig designs that perform well with small jibs, but they need to be pretty much non-overlapping for self tacking to work. I think you also lose some ability to tweak the sail (lead position, foot/leech tension) on the fly.

Most self tacking jib arrangements are little different than the ages-old club foot staysail setup on cutters gong back centuries.


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post #4 of 8 Old 01-15-2012
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I like the 25, it is a nice daysailer with a classical look and a modern underbody. The front boom for the auto tacking jib that we can find in many American boats (Island Packets for example) seems a bit too much to me on such a small boat. The Jib needs only a traveler to be auto tacking and that boom makes the boat look heavier to the eyes.

The boat seems to sail very well in light airs and would be a very nice boat to have and enjoy sailing pleasure:

They are proposing now a 30 ft on the same lines:


I guess that without taking out the boat classical character they could have designed this one to be more than a day sailer and I really don't like the use of a wheel on such a small boat, even more in a classical looking one.


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post #5 of 8 Old 01-15-2012
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I was on the 25at the Newport show in September. It's a nice looking boat that seems well thought out as a day sailer. If you plan to have more than two people aboard for more than a couple of days, I would look at different options. The 25is not set up as a pocket cruiser.
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post #6 of 8 Old 01-15-2012
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I like these boats a lot. They seem to sail very well and seem like a great alternative to boats like the Alerions, which seem wildly expensive for what they offer. There is something very appealing to me about a boat designed to simply enjoy the pleasures of being under sail.

Personally, I am not a fan of Hoyt booms or of self-tacking rigs in general. I fully understand why they exist and the simplicity that they offer but my experience with them is that it is very hard to get the level of adjustment (especially lead angle) that I personally would want in a small headsail.

This is one of those "there is no universally right anwer" type discussions, and I understand that my viewpoint may not represent the norm, but I find headails with minimal overlap or less, very easy to tack conventionally even on pretty big sized boats. But that small overlap offers some theortical advantages that appeal to me. It allows the jib to be more of a deck sweeper and a have more efficient slot. The larger overlap means a little more sail area, but also a lower aspect ratio to the sail for the same area. Lower aspect ratio sails tend to be more forgiving, which is a good thing when daysailing. Higher aspect ratio sails whether on a boom or overlapping, generally are more sensative to lead angle adjustment and I personally enjoy finessing those kind of smaller scale sail controls.

All of that said, the Hoyt boom's geometry partially helps make a non-overlapping, high aspect ratio sail more forgiving across a wider range of wind angles and certainly are superior to an un-poled jib at very deep angles. And also, if a boat is designed around having a Hoyt boom or self tacking sail, then the extra sail area of an small overlapping sail becomes something of a moot point.

If I were looking for similar concept boats on a tight budget, I would also look at something like a Sonar or J-22 which are much less expensive to buy used.

The other thing that I should mention about some of the Harbor models is that they seem to be attracting interest as as one design racing class. At least here in Annapolis, a pretty strong one design class has popped up. To me, this is a good thing, even if you are not a racer, in that one design class boats tend to hold their value better than orphan designs.


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Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-16-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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post #7 of 8 Old 01-15-2012
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I have not seen a Harbor in person, but like the idea. There are some other issues with a jib boom that I noticed on an Alerion on my dock. They pretty much exclude an anchor locker, not a big deal on a day sailor, but still nice to have. They also make the front deck hard to use, on most sailboats this is the only other area to relax outiside of the cockpit.
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post #8 of 8 Old 01-16-2012
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Re: Hoyt Jib Boom: In general the 3 key advantages of Gary Hoyt's invention is 1) that slot & draft can be adjusted indepedently to a rather fine degree Jeff is correct that this arrangement rewards nuanced adjustments. 2) Downwind and broad reaching very easy to keep foresail full vs. deck mounted self tacking rail or even a whisker pole 3) singlehanding is of course trivial.

Disadvantages 1) foredeck is only clear for young lovelies to lounge about while going downwind and 2) cumbersome to install lifelines.

All the daysailers which use the hoyt job boom ( Alerion 28, Harbor 25, etc) have large mains to compensate for the jib. Therefore, the sail/displacement ratios tend to be decent in the 20-23 range.

Gary Hoyt's Jib Boom invention does allow boats to point really high vs. others - the slot is just very efficient.

Both the AE 28 and H25 rate in the 170 range which is a nice rating for boats with 22' (AE28) and 21'(H25) waterlines.

Someone offers a retrofit kit for a Hoyt Boom which can be added to existing cruisers.

Re: Chain locker: The Harbor 25 does have an Chain locker. I believe the Alerion Express 28 also has one.

Re: Admirals: The Alerion Express 28 and Harbor 25 both have real heads. 'nuf said.

Re: overnighting: The 28 & 25 are daysailers, but people do overnight on them, since they both have real berths and a real head. Couples take the Harbor 25 to Catalina for the weekend, but couples who overnight on these boats are going to be the type of people who are willing to leave creature comforts at home. These might be the same type of people who love camping in the Rockies.

Re: Wheel vs. Tiller: =insert Stick shift vs automatic discussion

Re: Seaworthiness: The AE 28 and the H25 are small boats but surprisingly seaworthy. The AE28 has an active OD fleet in SF Bay with quite a few boats.

Used boats on a tight budget - A used Sonar or Ensign might be a good budget alternative, but these might be more akin to the Alerion Express 20 or Harbor 20. I suspect there are a host of boats from the late 50s and early 60s which would also be nice alternatives.

I always have loved the J/22, but think its cockpit just isn't in the lounging category which befits Daysailers. Daysailers are all about having big open cockpits with cushions and even pillows.
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Last edited by WDS123; 01-16-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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