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  #11  
Old 03-26-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

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Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
What to watch for, what wears out.
Everything wears out - and it costs a great deal more if it is on a 47' boat than a smaller boat. Even though they are asking 135k you will effectively be maintaining a 500k or more boat and you are unlikely to do that for 3000/yr. It is likely you will drop that much on a haulout. While it may be well maintained the electronics are older for a start, diesel and genset to maintain, etc.

You will also have to deposit $52,000 with the coop.

On the other hand B.C. hst is only 12% so a bit less expense there.

Move to Victoria - very liveaboard friendly. EVERY marina in Victoria harbour is a liveaboard marina and many in surrounding areas as well.
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  #12  
Old 03-26-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Victoria is possible in the future, but not now. I need to be in Vancouver at least 5 more years. My folks are from there.
Having talked things over with the owner, I've got a lot to chew over now. Marina fees are 5.50 a foot per month roughly, on top of the 52, 000 buy in, but that includes some of the bills I was adding on top.

Having owned it for 20 years living aboard, his picture of costs is quite accurate I think.
To account for potential issues, I rounded up on every expense to the next hundred per month and rounded down my income to the bare minimum in hours and pay where I work(very unlikely within the next 2-3 years, by which time I'll graduate, and lose the tuition expenses). I then did the same estimating again assuming I lost my job and had to pick up one at minimum wage.

It's closer than I'd like to the maximum I can afford in the minimum wage case assuming I am paying everything all by myself. Living with another person and even in that case I'm still living more comfortably than I was two years ago.
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Old 03-26-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

I looked into buying Porpoise (the one in the photo on the Sailboat Data page) from Bill Killam a number of years ago. It was the very first Airex core boat ever built - very high tech in the late 60's - and preceded his brothers maxi Graybeard. It was a pretty neat boat and had been hot in its day but it was well worn and overpriced IMO. It would have been a fabulous boat for cruising these parts with that pilohouse layout.

It was HUGE - 35 to 50% bigger than my Columbia 43 if my time hazed impressions are correct. Stairs from the dock were required. It would be an expensive boat to maintain. I imagine you'd need crew to take it out, although the broker told me Killam was selling it because, even though he didn't need glasses or hearing aids, at 90 Y.O. it was getting to be too much for him to singlehand! He kept it at RVYC Jericho so it was about the best possible berth for doing that but still....

Even if you were GIVEN that boat it would cost you tens of $thousands a year to continue owning it - over $500 just to fuel it - consider carefully.
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I looked into buying Porpoise (the one in the photo on the Sailboat Data page) from Bill Killam a number of years ago. It was the very first Airex core boat ever built - very high tech in the late 60's - and preceded his brothers maxi Graybeard. It was a pretty neat boat and had been hot in its day but it was well worn and overpriced IMO. It would have been a fabulous boat for cruising these parts with that pilohouse layout.

It was HUGE - 35 to 50% bigger than my Columbia 43 if my time hazed impressions are correct. Stairs from the dock were required. It would be an expensive boat to maintain. I imagine you'd need crew to take it out, although the broker told me Killam was selling it because, even though he didn't need glasses or hearing aids, at 90 Y.O. it was getting to be too much for him to singlehand! He kept it at RVYC Jericho so it was about the best possible berth for doing that but still....

Even if you were GIVEN that boat it would cost you tens of $thousands a year to continue owning it - over $500 just to fuel it - consider carefully.
Thank you! Can you give me a rough break down of those costs? Where do the 10s of thousands come from? Labor? Parts? Materials?
If it's materials that's a problem. Parts less so, and labor not so much, with the exception of engine or electrical repairs, though I can likely get some help for the basics on those as well.




The usage during the first 4-5 years will be pretty light, it'll mostly stay in dock. A bit of coastal sailing, practicing under

The owner says he average 1-1.1 gph under power. Anything less than a 3 day trip under heavy cloud cover and they don't burn any diesel for electricity either.

How can you check if it was Airex cored, the owner said it was a balsa core for his?

If anyone knows of any other boats in the Co-op for sale I'm all ears, I don't want to get too much tunnel vision, but she sure looked nicely taken care of.
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Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

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Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
Thank you! Can you give me a rough break down of those costs? Where do the 10s of thousands come from? Labor? Parts? Materials?
If it's materials that's a problem. Parts less so, and labor not so much, with the exception of engine or electrical repairs, though I can likely get some help for the basics on those as well.




The usage during the first 4-5 years will be pretty light, it'll mostly stay in dock. A bit of coastal sailing, practicing under

The owner says he average 1-1.1 gph under power. Anything less than a 3 day trip under heavy cloud cover and they don't burn any diesel for electricity either.

How can you check if it was Airex cored, the owner said it was a balsa core for his?

If anyone knows of any other boats in the Co-op for sale I'm all ears, I don't want to get too much tunnel vision, but she sure looked nicely taken care of.
Here's some examples - even cheap sails will start at around $5K each, you could easily spend $8K EACH for deluxe ones. Fuel at $500 a fill, at least $500 for bottom paint - just the cans of paint. Hauling for bottom maintenance, probably $300 each way. $1 a MINUTE for pressure washing the bottom and that boat will take a hour to do properly. Probably $800+ for time on the hard. You have the ongoing costs for parking it at the Co-Op - with the City charges you'll be paying $5K or so, not counting the amortization of the buy in. Replacing running rigging will run $1.50 a foot for each of the lines - in low tech line. A single snap shackle for a boat that size will eat most of $100.

Shall I continue?

One thing to remember is that sailboats tend to eat money irregularly, but in big chunks - you can go for several years on a set of sails but then you need a couple of new ones - goodbye $10K - $15K. You may go several years spending very little on the engine - just fuel, oil & filters but then you need to do your stuffing box and cutless bearing, maybe a new shaft if it has been badly scored - $$$$$. Damage a prop with some floating debris - $500 to $3K+ depending on your prop. I don't know how the boat is outfitted but things like water heaters, hot air furnaces, refrigeration etc. get very expensive when they break, which they do a lot more frequently than home versions. You have to provide your own water pumps - the city doesn't pressurize the water for you - and they are troublesome critters.

These are only some examples, not an exhaustive list but I think you see how things can add up quickly. There is ALWAYS something that needs doing on a boat and it's ALWAYS more expensive than expected, usually 2 or 3 times more.

I don't want to scare you off but I think you would be well advised to dial back on the size of boat you are considering starting with. A 40' boat will probably cost little more than 1/2 as much to operate as that monster you are looking at - it is a very big 47' boat.
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Last edited by SloopJonB; 03-27-2012 at 02:04 AM.
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  #16  
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Here's some examples - even cheap sails will start at around $5K each, you could easily spend $8K EACH for deluxe ones. Fuel at $500 a fill, at least $500 for bottom paint - just the cans of paint. Hauling for bottom maintenance, probably $300 each way. $1 a MINUTE for pressure washing the bottom and that boat will take a hour to do properly. Probably $800+ for time on the hard. You have the ongoing costs for parking it at the Co-Op - with the City charges you'll be paying $5K or so, not counting the amortization of the buy in. Replacing running rigging will run $1.50 a foot for each of the lines - in low tech line. A single snap shackle for a boat that size will eat most of $100.
Hmm, they told me city charges were rolled into the moorage fees, he phoned the front office and they confirmed 5.15 rising to 5.50 for 2013, all in. With their current slip that works out to 57 for winter including running space heaters and an oil filled heater in the main cabin.
Cable, internet, parking, sauna, workshop access, electric based on their consumption levels, city fees etc.
Works out to 6900/year for that.
on top of that they pay 110$/mo for insurance for insurance.


How often do you need to apply bottom paint to an epoxy coated boat?
How often should you get the boat on land and power wash the bottom?
Do you know if the Royal Victoria Yacht club haul out could take a boat of this size? I think I might get slightly better rates there if my dad is hauling it out(he's a member there)

When you say hauling out, does this imply winching out and placing up on a wheeled trailer, using a lift, or using a tidal grid?
If using a tidal grid, could I then bring my own gas power washer and clean it there instead?

Quote:
Shall I continue?
Yes please!

Quote:
One thing to remember is that sailboats tend to eat money irregularly, but in big chunks - you can go for several years on a set of sails but then you need a couple of new ones - goodbye $10K - $15K. You may go several years spending very little on the engine - just fuel, oil & filters but then you need to do your stuffing box and cutless bearing, maybe a new shaft if it has been badly scored - $$$$$. Damage a prop with some floating debris - $500 to $3K+ depending on your prop. I don't know how the boat is outfitted but things like water heaters, hot air furnaces, refrigeration etc. get very expensive when they break, which they do a lot more frequently than home versions. You have to provide your own water pumps - the city doesn't pressurize the water for you - and they are troublesome critters.

These are only some examples, not an exhaustive list but I think you see how things can add up quickly. There is ALWAYS something that needs doing on a boat and it's ALWAYS more expensive than expected, usually 2 or 3 times more.

I don't want to scare you off but I think you would be well advised to dial back on the size of boat you are considering starting with. A 40' boat will probably cost little more than 1/2 as much to operate as that monster you are looking at - it is a very big 47' boat.
The diesel engine is in good shape, honestly it's the cleanest I've ever seen.
Packing is probably still good, it was done in 2010 as well, tools and enough packing for two more rounds is secured right by the shaft, there's still 3/4" space left on the adjustment.
Refrigeration was redone in '08 and is a very nice low power draw system(Nova Kool, replacement on it is 1297$ for the same unit)
Hot water tank is custom built. Welded SS by a local welder/sailor with stock home depot fittings for easy replacement of wearing parts.
Hot air is electric on grid, diesel off. He mentioned the water pumps but I've forgotten.

Half as much is a big savings That is very good to know. It leaves all costs directly on me though, so I have to factor that in as well. Especially when moorage outside the Co-op is significantly more.
If you have any suggestions of boats for sale, or areas to look, I'm all ears!



By all means keep going, the more I can get an idea of the cost of things the better.
Every little clue helps when you're as completely ignorant of what you're thinking of getting into as I am.
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Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Royal Victoria only has a lift for the dry sailed small racers. You would have to haul at Canoe Cove or Westport in Sidney.

I think it is a great boat - but I think you are looking at it with rose coloured glasses and not seeing the future costs. Even if everything is fine now your budget will not let you keep it in the condition it is in. Often seen is the boat that someone could afford to buy or finance and then they could not afford to keep them in the condition they are accustomed to - and then years later they are for sale at a huge discount and needing lots of work and replacement.

How often should the bottom be cleaned/washed? Every 2 years works around here with divers to check and replace zincs and scrub in between hauling.
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Royal Victoria only has a lift for the dry sailed small racers. You would have to haul at Canoe Cove or Westport in Sidney.

I think it is a great boat - but I think you are looking at it with rose coloured glasses and not seeing the future costs. Even if everything is fine now your budget will not let you keep it in the condition it is in. Often seen is the boat that someone could afford to buy or finance and then they could not afford to keep them in the condition they are accustomed to - and then years later they are for sale at a huge discount and needing lots of work and replacement.

How often should the bottom be cleaned/washed? Every 2 years works around here with divers to check and replace zincs and scrub in between hauling.
I can't thank you guys enough for being patient and providing so much info. I'm still ignorant, but at least I am starting to figure out how little I know about what's involved. That is a reasonable assumption, all I've got to go on are SWAGs and what the PO of the boat told me in terms of costs.

I've got no issues working underwater, zinc replacement /scrubbing etc shouldn't be an issue. Would that be on a 6 month or yearly check/clean?


I remember as a kid wandering under much bigger boats there on land there mostly because of the time they knocked the mast off of one with the crane. Is that all gone now? That was close to 20 years ago I suppose.

I just realized my math was off in the previous post. 5.50x52 does not equal 575.

If I were to go smaller(for arguments sake a 40' as suggested) would all operation costs actually be halved? For example sails would be 2500-4000$ instead of 5-8? Diesel engine overhauling be 50% of cost, repacking the coupling 50% cheaper, fuel consumption of .5 gph? Hauling out 50% cheaper as well?



I'm trying to get an accurate picture so I can make a good choice. Having no experience I'm certainly in no position to argue the costs involved, I just want to nail down some rough numbers I can work with, you all have far more experience than me.

What would you say would be a reasonable yearly budget for maintenance for it?

What about for a 40'?

I have a suspicion that some of the involved costs are fixed, and others similar regardless of the size difference. That's based on experience with land vehicles though.

Basically if a 40' is 50% or less all in(or a 35 is) then I should go that route and have it to myself. Otherwise having someone else contributing to the effort/expenses on the bigger boat makes more sense to me.

2200$-550$ with more living space is a better deal than 1700$/mo for a boat that won't go offshore later, moored in an area where everything costs extra and ending up even closer in expenses. I did a rough tally of the costs for a 40' at heather marina, and it came out close to 1700$/mo, assuming up front costs of 60, 000 for the boat.




Are there any other areas you would recommend looking, or other boats currently for sale that would allow living aboard, and transition well to long distances later for sale right now in the area?

What about alternative hull materials?(ferrocement, steel)

I've confirmed the rough financing end of things, looks like I'll be paying around 3.2% on whatever the end investment is.
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Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Epoxy coating is not an antifoulant.. the bottom paint goes on top of that so whether a hull has been coated is immaterial to the use/frequency of antifouling paint. It's a preventative measure for osmotic blisters on the hull. 2 years between major haulouts is doable esp if you can keep up inbetween with scrubs and cleans.

Avoid ferro boats.. steel boats can be OK but again you need to be very careful that they've been properly built and maintained. (one old Folkes 37 in our marina was being scrubbed after sitting as a liveaboard for years, she had 3" of mussels everywhere. Luckily a travel lift was close by because at one point the diver scraped off a patch and opened up a thumb sized hole in the steel - can you say 'glug glug'?)

Good steel boats come at a premium, not a bargain, with additional upkeep and watchfulness required. Aluminum is similar but with different issues, and wood boats are another thing altogether. In your situation a well found fiberglass boat will be the best choice.

Your need to liveaboard in Vancouver complicates things a lot. The co-op route is probably the best one. Heather has limited space, as does Pier 32. Fishermans Floats no longer sanctions new liveaboards.

As expensive as the cost of living in Vancouver is, living aboard (legally and conveniently) is not 'cheap' either.
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Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Jgborwn,

Are you truly looking for advice or for affirmation concerning your decision. The advice you are getting so far has been sound advice. This is quite a chunk of boat to bite off for your first boat. Using it as a liveaboard will set up a different scenerio than just dropping the dock lines and taking her out for a cruise.

There are many things to consider here. Lets take maintainence for example Take just one....which one of your helpers will build design and fabricate new sails for instance. The expense for a 40 footer vs a 47 footer for sails is much geater. Your $3000 a year budget wouldnt even buy you one new sail.

I applaud you for reaching out to others with experience in boating and living aboard, but listeneing without challanging their comments or suggestio0ns appears to be a challenge.

Dave
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