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  #21  
Old 03-27-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Epoxy coating is not an antifoulant.. the bottom paint goes on top of that so whether a hull has been coated is immaterial to the use/frequency of antifouling paint. It's a preventative measure for osmotic blisters on the hull. 2 years between major haulouts is doable esp if you can keep up inbetween with scrubs and cleans.

Avoid ferro boats.. steel boats can be OK but again you need to be very careful that they've been properly built and maintained. (one old Folkes 37 in our marina was being scrubbed after sitting as a liveaboard for years, she had 3" of mussels everywhere. Luckily a travel lift was close by because at one point the diver scraped off a patch and opened up a thumb sized hole in the steel - can you say 'glug glug'?)

Good steel boats come at a premium, not a bargain, with additional upkeep and watchfulness required. Aluminum is similar but with different issues, and wood boats are another thing altogether. In your situation a well found fiberglass boat will be the best choice.

Your need to liveaboard in Vancouver complicates things a lot. The co-op route is probably the best one. Heather has limited space, as does Pier 32. Fishermans Floats no longer sanctions new liveaboards.

As expensive as the cost of living in Vancouver is, living aboard (legally and conveniently) is not 'cheap' either.

I see. No matter what, anything is more expensive than my current place. I've never really had any interest in owning a condo here. I had been considering the land equivalent to sneak a board with a truck conversion or living on a boat. Both are things I've always wanted to do.
I have seen references and arguments between hard bottom paints and wearing paints such as copper based ones.
what is considered a hard paint?



I'm totally open to alternatives, if that is the better route. I'm trying to get an idea of where the savings are and how much they'd be now. Do you know any other coop boats for sale? or any decent live aboard situations?

what other factors come into play on a steel hull? Im assuming higher maintenance due to risk of rust etc.

Same question for ferrocement, I hadn't seen any decent condition ones for sale with a slip, but I was curious about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Jgborwn,

Are you truly looking for advice or for affirmation concerning your decision. The advice you are getting so far has been sound advice. This is quite a chunk of boat to bite off for your first boat. Using it as a liveaboard will set up a different scenerio than just dropping the dock lines and taking her out for a cruise.

There are many things to consider here. Lets take maintainence for example Take just one....which one of your helpers will build design and fabricate new sails for instance. The expense for a 40 footer vs a 47 footer for sails is much geater. Your $3000 a year budget wouldnt even buy you one new sail.

I applaud you for reaching out to others with experience in boating and living aboard, but listeneing without challanging their comments or suggestio0ns appears to be a challenge.

Dave
Sorry if it appears that way, I am seeking clarification and further understanding not disagreeing. They have experience, I have none.


the one factor different in my situation vs living aboard in another city is the off boat costs.
Outside the coop double the moorage fees per foot(12 vs6), start requiring pumping out instead (requires payment and fuel to move).
Add 100 a month for city fees and 550a month extra since costs aren't shared.

Extra costs for shop access, parking etc all add up too. the savings since I won't be sharing, and living outside the coop looks to add up to 1000$ more a month.

On the other hand I'll save 400to 500a month in mortgage costs on a less expensive boat.

If the savings on the smaller boat account for the difference over time then my choice is easy. I am trying to see where those savings are. Even very rough figures would be very helpful. Can you help me with that? What would your estimate of operating costs on a 40 vs the 47 be?

if no other factors had to be accounted for I would be looking to go as small as possible that would still have standing headroom and be safe off shore later.

Do you know of any small boats with live aboard moorage in Vancouver? Or any advice on where to look. I've only come across one. Asking 90k. Only 6 more months of moorage too.
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
I have seen references and arguments between hard bottom paints and wearing paints such as copper based ones.
what is considered a hard paint?
"Ablative" paints are designed to 'slough off' due to the movement of the water, exposing new biocides over the life span of the paint. They generally result in a slightly rougher surface and are popular with the non racing crowd. Regularly scrubbing the hull of a boat with ablative paint will remove more paint sooner, perhaps requiring recoating more often too. OTOH ablative paints don't tend to build up layers like hard paints will.

Hard paints don't ablate, they can be sanded and burnished to a very smooth surface and will stand up better to frequent scrubbing.. favoured by the racing crowd for obvious reasons. Paint layers do build up, requiring the periodic (unpleasant) task of removing the old paint back to the barrier coat or gel coat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
what other factors come into play on a steel hull? Im assuming higher maintenance due to risk of rust etc.

Same question for ferrocement, I hadn't seen any decent condition ones for sale with a slip, but I was curious about them.
Metal boats do rust.. that makes upkeep more problematic, and proper maintenance more important (ref my anecdotal tale above - the growth was keeping that poorly maintained boat afloat ) Good metal boats like Amazon, Waterline, etc are priced at a premium like any other high quality build.
Aluminum has it's own corrosion issues and antifouling paints can themselves cause issues.

Ferrocement was the backyard builders material of choice and as a result there are some very questionable boats out there.. poorly finished and executed. I have seen FC boats you couldn't tell from F/g but they are rare indeed. Simply too many question marks for an uniformed buyer.. and an informed one generally knows better and looks beyond the 'great price'.

Your right about one thing.. the only practical route is to find an existing, assumable co-op slip. The problem is they're rare as hens' teeth, and the one that is there is a BIG proposition for a first boat scenario.
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  #23  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Jgb... too bad Victoria doesn't work for you:

CS 36 Traditional
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  #24  
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Jgb... too bad Victoria doesn't work for you:

CS 36 Traditional
You're telling me. I've been drooling over that ad for a while. That's exactly what I would like in a boat. Well put together, easy to handle and well maintained.

I'd even be willing to buy the motorboat currently for sale at the Co-op and work out a trade, even if it cost me 60-70k instead of 48. 140k more is pretty silly though.


There's quite a few nice boats around. I just can't find anything with moorage. If I could find a slip in Vancouver I'd get it right away, and sort out the boat part later.


I need to be not much more than 15KM from 1067 West Cordova street or Granville island. Realistic range to make my commute to work and school feasible by e-bike.

I wouldn't even mind living at anchor. I have showers and proper washrooms at work and school, and I can do laundry at my friends.
I spend all day at work watching the boats go by(I work in a tower near the convention center). I could quite easily get to and from work by water, my window directly faces the Chevron floating gas station.


I grew up reading Joshua Slocum, etc. Single handing was a large part of that dream.
In an ideal world I'd find the perfect boat first, then find a place to park it after. Rather than having to find the perfect place to park, and a boat to go with. I realize that may have been part of the confusion originally, I am looking for a floating home that I can live on, and that could be sailed around, rather than a boat I want to sail that I could live on.


If I could get even most of my money back I would be ok with buying and then reselling the '47 to reduce the operating costs but be able to live in the Co-op. Even if that required moving it, as it is with tanks topped off etc, my dad and I could easily take a few weeks off to get it somewhere it would be easier to sell.

Do good steel boats cost more up front and less to maintain/operate or more all around? How is their resale value? Vancouver is a funny place in that sense, at the going rates for moorage and repairs it looks like after 5-6 years the purchase price is the least expensive part of the whole thing.
I'd rather spend up front and save in the long term.


I'd still really like to get a rough idea of operating costs per month for any 40' sailboat vs the '47 to have some better idea of where the trade offs work out best one way or the other.

Last edited by Jgbrown; 03-27-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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  #25  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
Do good steel boats cost more up front and less to maintain/operate or more all around? How is their resale value?
Good steel boats are expensive and rare. Here are a few examples;
1991 Waterline 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
1988 Waterline 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
2003 Waterline Yachts Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I don't think any steel boat will be less expensive to maintain than a comparable fiberglass boat. And except for very few they suffer in resale. Actually the first 2 links show boats that may have been more expensive if built in fiberglass - and they were very expensive new.

I think there are a few small marinas in the Fraser River for liveaboard, but it would be a commute.
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  #26  
Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

What is the benefit of steel then? Just curious mostly, glass makes the most sense for me.

I came across a blog for a sailor who lived on a trimaran at anchor here in Vancouver. I honestly didn't think that was possible around here. Reflecting on why I wanted this, I realized that I always wanted to live on a boat, because I wanted to sail and explore, not because I wanted to have a bigger place to sleep. I was looking at the 47' as a house that could be sailed even if it wasn't ideal. That is not what my interest really was, but an adaption of what I thought I needed( a house) and a compromise that could let me do something I was interested in, perhaps not even a very good one(I want to learn to solo) because I came across it and it solved a part of the equation I didn't know how to approach.

I also realized that I was being fixated on things I "needed", shore power, work shop space, secure parking etc. In reality I don't need those things. If the point was to live on a boat, then I should focus on that. I remember a line from my favorite book on sailing, about the way to learn to sail was to live in the boat and sail it in all conditions where you already were, deal with all the problems with what you have at hand, get used to the mildewing sails, the bad food and soggy sheets. Bearing in mind that it was written when wooden boats with no motor and no electricity were standard, the core of the idea still has merit. If I can't make it living at anchor, how can I expect to do so offshore.
I've started to find people who DO live at anchor here. Most of the people here living at anchor state the hardest thing is the travel required for showers, or finding a way to commute on land. Both of my primary destinations(work and school) are reasonably water accessible, and there are people who commute by kayak or dinghy. Both also have showers I can access almost 24/7. Also there are clean water taps I can easily fill up from.

If I am careful, I should be able to live quite comfortably at anchor. This totally changes the boats I am looking at, since a place to dock is no longer my main focus. It also takes out the largest portions of the day to day costs for me, cutting expenses allows for a lot of leeway in additional costs to live at anchor(fuel, pump outs, maintenance and upgrades etc). 1000$ a month should go a long way towards that.

I noticed at home I still live almost like I'm on my bike. I typically use less than 10l of water a day not counting showers. Food and water won't be a change from how I live now, and my options are opening up. Thank you again for the good advice.

Last edited by Jgbrown; 03-29-2012 at 03:38 AM.
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Anchoring full time in Vancouver is a bit problematic these days too (Sorry to rain on your parade again) False Creek, which offers best shelter and convenience, is restricted to 2 weeks every so many months, and requires a permit. This has forced such people out into English Bay, where every year a few of them wash ashore in storms due to inadequate ground tackle, heavy wind and big waves. Last night would have been a sleepless one for you too. (or you may have woken up half way to Nanaimo)

There are several people doing it, and technically it's legal except overstaying your permit in FC or trying it on in Vancouver Harbour, but it means long periods with your boat unattended (while you're at work) and you're at the mercy of the weather. Also getting water, pumpouts, charging batteries etc are all going to cost since you'll likely have to take transient moorage for some of those tasks - but as you say, much less than full time moorage. Another issue is where to leave your kayak/tender during your shore time.

btw, glad you're listening to reason re: the 47 footer.. I do like your new focus better and your selection choice is now wide open. But you may find it's not as simple as it sounds. Good luck.
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  #28  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Anchoring full time in Vancouver is a bit problematic these days too (Sorry to rain on your parade again) False Creek, which offers best shelter and convenience, is restricted to 2 weeks every so many months, and requires a permit. This has forced such people out into English Bay, where every year a few of them wash ashore in storms due to inadequate ground tackle, heavy wind and big waves. Last night would have been a sleepless one for you too. (or you may have woken up half way to Nanaimo)

There are several people doing it, and technically it's legal except overstaying your permit in FC or trying it on in Vancouver Harbour, but it means long periods with your boat unattended (while you're at work) and you're at the mercy of the weather. Also getting water, pumpouts, charging batteries etc are all going to cost since you'll likely have to take transient moorage for some of those tasks - but as you say, much less than full time moorage. Another issue is where to leave your kayak/tender during your shore time.

btw, glad you're listening to reason re: the 47 footer.. I do like your new focus better and your selection choice is now wide open. But you may find it's not as simple as it sounds. Good luck.
At least im progressing towards less ignorance. I found the question and answer section and read as far back as it goes until 5 am today too, that had lots of things to consider too. Dimple and easy are not required. Possible is definitely a good idea though. You are not raining on anything, I really appreciate the info and patience.
everyone who has replied taught me something, or gave me a new area to add to my list of topics to research.


Time and stubbornness I have, money is much more finite. I need a challenge, but want to manage the risks as much as possible. I'm going to start a new thread on it to explore my options since this is way off topic now, I'd really appreciate the continued good council if you don't mind the total beginners questions I have.
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Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
What is the benefit of steel then? Just curious mostly, glass makes the most sense for me.

I came across a blog for a sailor who lived on a trimaran at anchor here in Vancouver. I honestly didn't think that was possible around here. Reflecting on why I wanted this, I realized that I always wanted to live on a boat, because I wanted to sail and explore, not because I wanted to have a bigger place to sleep. I was looking at the 47' as a house that could be sailed even if it wasn't ideal. That is not what my interest really was, but an adaption of what I thought I needed( a house) and a compromise that could let me do something I was interested in, perhaps not even a very good one(I want to learn to solo) because I came across it and it solved a part of the equation I didn't know how to approach.

I also realized that I was being fixated on things I "needed", shore power, work shop space, secure parking etc. In reality I don't need those things. If the point was to live on a boat, then I should focus on that. I remember a line from my favorite book on sailing, about the way to learn to sail was to live in the boat and sail it in all conditions where you already were, deal with all the problems with what you have at hand, get used to the mildewing sails, the bad food and soggy sheets. Bearing in mind that it was written when wooden boats with no motor and no electricity were standard, the core of the idea still has merit. If I can't make it living at anchor, how can I expect to do so offshore.
I've started to find people who DO live at anchor here. Most of the people here living at anchor state the hardest thing is the travel required for showers, or finding a way to commute on land. Both of my primary destinations(work and school) are reasonably water accessible, and there are people who commute by kayak or dinghy. Both also have showers I can access almost 24/7. Also there are clean water taps I can easily fill up from.

If I am careful, I should be able to live quite comfortably at anchor. This totally changes the boats I am looking at, since a place to dock is no longer my main focus. It also takes out the largest portions of the day to day costs for me, cutting expenses allows for a lot of leeway in additional costs to live at anchor(fuel, pump outs, maintenance and upgrades etc). 1000$ a month should go a long way towards that.

I noticed at home I still live almost like I'm on my bike. I typically use less than 10l of water a day not counting showers. Food and water won't be a change from how I live now, and my options are opening up. Thank you again for the good advice.
JG, just a quick reality check - Working at a city job while living at anchor, particularly in a climate like ours, is very different from cruising - so different in fact that it might put you off cruising entirely. Rowing back & forth in the rain & cold would get old in a hurry. It's very difficult to maintain "city" or "office" clothes and grooming under those circumstances. Picture rowing ashore in a November rain with a couple of garbage bags of laundry, which you have to bicycle to the laundromat (if your bike hasn't been stolen). Every few days you'll have to up anchor just to go fill your water tanks. AFAIK there isn't anywhere near any anchorages where water is available to just anybody who stops by. The gas docks will quickly tire of seeing you if you aren't buying fuel from them regularly.

Living aboard here, even in a deluxe marina, requires adjustments and compromises that few are prepared to make once the reality hits home. Living at anchor multiplies them exponentially. This ain't the tropics.
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  #30  
Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Looking at buying a Discovery 47'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
The gas docks will quickly tire of seeing you if you aren't buying fuel from them regularly.
Speaking of gas docks, where is the closest one if you are anchoring in English Bay? As far as I know the one near Burrard Civic Marina has been closed for years. Coal Harbour?
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