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  #111  
Old 05-07-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Saw her in her slip the other day, no one on board... looks not bad from across the finger.

Lesson's learned.. remember 'Trust, ..... but verify'
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  #112  
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

How much more verifying could a total newb do? I talked with the owner extensively, then since I didn't know enough to tell the difference I hired a surveyor to verify, after his assessment of the needed work + the value of the engine and sail being new I went ahead. At double the rate of a lot of other surveyors, the additional expense seemed worth it to avoid exactly the situation I'm in, I was enthusiastic, surveyors are level headed. Everyone involved is NOW telling me all the things I asked about before and got a different answer to. Like any known issues, does the engine leak oil? How much does she hold? Any moisture issues?
assuming ignorance or that I'm being lied to more than just the usual minor annoyances people hide seems a safer bet next time.

Edit: I'll be there during the day most days now, feel free to stop by and say hi

Last edited by Jgbrown; 05-07-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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  #113  
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Unfortunate series of circumstances.. Maybe you could share the surveyor's name via PM? That's steep and I would have hoped he'd have at least been able to deduct that "New" was not.

Good bones, though, I think.. as you say the next owner will be happy...
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  #114  
Old 05-07-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
How much more verifying could a total newb do? I talked with the owner extensively, then since I didn't know enough to tell the difference I hired a surveyor to verify, after his assessment of the needed work + the value of the engine and sail being new I went ahead.
a) Call a good lawyer, the initial consultation should be free. The original owner misrepresented what he was selling in writing.

b) A complaint to the surveyor should be good to get the price of the survey refunded. If not, see a)

You may still have a good boat, but it would be a better boat if the price reflected its actual condition.
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

It sounds like your surveyor didn't have the owner's "claims" in hand when they did the survey, and was just looking at the condition of the boat against the cost? I say this, because I can't believe that any cruising main for a 30-ft boat is worth $9,000 (as stated in your description) and the surveyor should have certainly told you that at least. Were you there for the survey?

You might have cause to take some of it up with the surveyor. But maybe you're overworried about the engine. Hard to picture a 96 Yanmar rusting through anywhere, except maybe the exhaust elbow.

Anyway, I hope it's better than you are thinking.
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  #116  
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

An glance at the engine serial number would have confirmed the age of the engine, and I am surprised the surveyor didn't make note of this.
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  #117  
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Unfortunate series of circumstances.. Maybe you could share the surveyor's name via PM? That's steep and I would have hoped he'd have at least been able to deduct that "New" was not.

Good bones, though, I think.. as you say the next owner will be happy...
There have been a few annoying mistakes, even based on the info the owner gave him, the year of the engine was wrong(he listed it as new in 2010, but had been told it was new in 2011)
One of the recommendations we'd agreed on was put in the wrong section(fix within 30, instead of do not use until resolved) which put me in a bind.
I was told I'd get the formal survey by the purchase date, but didn't get it until I called up and asked again, when everyone was out of their office. He'd put it on his bosses desk but nobody actually got it to me. I finally got through to him because the guy running the shipyard had his contact info.
He did cover himself, in the formal survey it notes in legalese that areas of the boat were inaccessible due to liner, etc. It also says that no observations were made of anything above the deck, and that the engine should be checked out by a mechanic and no formal observations of it would be made.
I am surprised too that he didn't at least notice the new/not new, it was something we'd talked about in combination with the tank capacity as reasons I was very interested in Antares as a potential long term boat. Tank capacity I told him what I was told, but the paper survey ended up listing estimated tank sizes based on stock tanks(still bigger than my fuel tank is I believe). No mention that it was likely a liters to gallons conversion issue(same with holding tank). On the plus side he pointed out the loose zinc on the prop so I could replace it at the time.

I had a quote from a couple places for 500$ including haul out. I paid 24$/ft+152$ for the haulout on top.
I felt it was worth it for the thoroughness, since I started to get some reservations when the owner pushed the time frame harder.






Quote:
Originally Posted by zedboy View Post
a) Call a good lawyer, the initial consultation should be free. The original owner misrepresented what he was selling in writing.

b) A complaint to the surveyor should be good to get the price of the survey refunded. If not, see a)

You may still have a good boat, but it would be a better boat if the price reflected its actual condition.
a) I'm going to talk to the owner first, he's away most of the week though. I have a healthy dislike of lawyering up and going after someone unless we can't sort out our issues sensibly on our own. Especially since I think the misrepresentation wasn't intentional. Sorting out one way or another is required. Especially now that I'm in contact with the previous previous owner who has much the same story, the guy before HIM apparently did the upgrades, then had to sell. Some of which may have been pre-2000. The Jabasco head is also not new 2011, and the pump leaks. As does the sink freshwater tap, though I was told that part way through the sale at least.


b) The surveyor's caveats(which we didn't discuss during the verbal run-down of the survey at the time) covers him. He still did his job, most of it very well, he just didn't do a couple parts of it well at all IMO. However things like the track the mainsail travels on I would consider on the deck, not above the deck rigging, and it requires removal and fixing because the wood underneath is swelled up/sticking out and decaying and it jams the travel of the piece that connects to the main-sheet.






Quote:
Originally Posted by arf145 View Post
It sounds like your surveyor didn't have the owner's "claims" in hand when they did the survey, and was just looking at the condition of the boat against the cost? I say this, because I can't believe that any cruising main for a 30-ft boat is worth $9,000 (as stated in your description) and the surveyor should have certainly told you that at least. Were you there for the survey?

You might have cause to take some of it up with the surveyor. But maybe you're overworried about the engine. Hard to picture a 96 Yanmar rusting through anywhere, except maybe the exhaust elbow.

Anyway, I hope it's better than you are thinking.
Yes he did, we specifically discussed the motor and sail being new and valuable, he agreed that I was buying the motor/sail with an older boat that needed work attached. I was present at the survey, we went over some things together, he gave me some tips on places to pick up the parts I'd need for some of the minor stuff, and pointed out some things that weren't relevant to the survey but that I should fix. At the end we spent a half hour doing a verbal run down of all the points he'd noticed. A couple of the things that made it into the written survey which I got 8 days later, 4 days after I should have had it weren't discussed at the time(the corrosion on the water injection, the oil in the bilge and by extension where it was coming from, I was told by the owner later that it was just dribbles from filling the oil since it was awkward to get around the engine.)
I am surprised too, Mitiempo spotted the engine issue, and he's on the internet!

The weird part is that he lists the model and serial, and a build age of 2010(not 2011), but they stopped making them earlier, and the previous owner thinks that it is a '96 as Mitiempo spotted from Victoria, and had a rebuild(maybe even a full one, though the quality of the paint job makes me wonder, engine coloured paint all over the plastic yellow oil cap on the front only makes me wonder...) Yanmar lists the engine model as built from 1983 to 2005, as does Wikipedia.
Apparently most boat diesels get about 1000 hours per decade, so I suppose I should estimate it at 1600 hours and add the hours meter back on.
I guess overall I'm annoyed, and disappointed in some people, though I don't think it was malicious, but a series of small mistakes, exaggerations etc that added up. I would hope that most sellers would at least check the dates of things they are claiming were done in the past year.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I couldn't have seen a lot of this before I knew more, I was relying on the surveyor and owner and the fact that so much had been done this year as guides to the purchase, I thought I was playing it safe vs the boats I liked better.
Enough bitching on my part I think, I'm going to go run some errands and get a start on cleaning Antares. I'll meet with the seller this week, and hopefully we'll figure out where I'm actually at right now, and where to go from here. He's still a good guy, and I'll still have a beer with him, I just won't buy another boat from him.

If anyone feels like stopping by to say hi, feel free, other than this week I'm there 10am-2:30pm most days.
The beers are as cold as the hull can make em, but the rum tastes fine either way
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  #118  
Old 05-07-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
There have been a few annoying mistakes, even based on the info the owner gave him, the year of the engine was wrong(he listed it as new in 2010, but had been told it was new in 2011)
One of the recommendations we'd agreed on was put in the wrong section(fix within 30, instead of do not use until resolved) which put me in a bind.
I was told I'd get the formal survey by the purchase date, but didn't get it until I called up and asked again, when everyone was out of their office. He'd put it on his bosses desk but nobody actually got it to me. I finally got through to him because the guy running the shipyard had his contact info.
He did cover himself, in the formal survey it notes in legalese that areas of the boat were inaccessible due to liner, etc. It also says that no observations were made of anything above the deck, and that the engine should be checked out by a mechanic and no formal observations of it would be made.
I am surprised too that he didn't at least notice the new/not new, it was something we'd talked about in combination with the tank capacity as reasons I was very interested in Antares as a potential long term boat. Tank capacity I told him what I was told, but the paper survey ended up listing estimated tank sizes based on stock tanks(still bigger than my fuel tank is I believe). No mention that it was likely a liters to gallons conversion issue(same with holding tank). On the plus side he pointed out the loose zinc on the prop so I could replace it at the time.

I had a quote from a couple places for 500$ including haul out. I paid 24$/ft+152$ for the haulout on top.
I felt it was worth it for the thoroughness, since I started to get some reservations when the owner pushed the time frame harder.

a) I'm going to talk to the owner first, he's away most of the week though. I have a healthy dislike of lawyering up and going after someone unless we can't sort out our issues sensibly on our own. Especially since I think the misrepresentation wasn't intentional. Sorting out one way or another is required. Especially now that I'm in contact with the previous previous owner who has much the same story, the guy before HIM apparently did the upgrades, then had to sell. Some of which may have been pre-2000. The Jabasco head is also not new 2011, and the pump leaks. As does the sink freshwater tap, though I was told that part way through the sale at least.

b) The surveyor's caveats(which we didn't discuss during the verbal run-down of the survey at the time) covers him. He still did his job, most of it very well, he just didn't do a couple parts of it well at all IMO. However things like the track the mainsail travels on I would consider on the deck, not above the deck rigging, and it requires removal and fixing because the wood underneath is swelled up/sticking out and decaying and it jams the travel of the piece that connects to the main-sheet.

Yes he did, we specifically discussed the motor and sail being new and valuable, he agreed that I was buying the motor/sail with an older boat that needed work attached. I was present at the survey, we went over some things together, he gave me some tips on places to pick up the parts I'd need for some of the minor stuff, and pointed out some things that weren't relevant to the survey but that I should fix. At the end we spent a half hour doing a verbal run down of all the points he'd noticed. A couple of the things that made it into the written survey which I got 8 days later, 4 days after I should have had it weren't discussed at the time(the corrosion on the water injection, the oil in the bilge and by extension where it was coming from, I was told by the owner later that it was just dribbles from filling the oil since it was awkward to get around the engine.)
I am surprised too, Mitiempo spotted the engine issue, and he's on the internet!

The weird part is that he lists the model and serial, and a build age of 2010(not 2011), but they stopped making them earlier, and the previous owner thinks that it is a '96 as Mitiempo spotted from Victoria, and had a rebuild(maybe even a full one, though the quality of the paint job makes me wonder, engine coloured paint all over the plastic yellow oil cap on the front only makes me wonder...) Yanmar lists the engine model as built from 1983 to 2005, as does Wikipedia.
Apparently most boat diesels get about 1000 hours per decade, so I suppose I should estimate it at 1600 hours and add the hours meter back on.
I guess overall I'm annoyed, and disappointed in some people, though I don't think it was malicious, but a series of small mistakes, exaggerations etc that added up. I would hope that most sellers would at least check the dates of things they are claiming were done in the past year.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I couldn't have seen a lot of this before I knew more, I was relying on the surveyor and owner and the fact that so much had been done this year as guides to the purchase, I thought I was playing it safe vs the boats I liked better.
Enough bitching on my part I think, I'm going to go run some errands and get a start on cleaning Antares. I'll meet with the seller this week, and hopefully we'll figure out where I'm actually at right now, and where to go from here. He's still a good guy, and I'll still have a beer with him, I just won't buy another boat from him.

If anyone feels like stopping by to say hi, feel free, other than this week I'm there 10am-2:30pm most days.
The beers are as cold as the hull can make em, but the rum tastes fine either way
Yet more evidence to support my opinion that the vast majority of "surveys" are a meaningless expense. If home inspectors were this bad there would be government action, regulation, legal action etc.

IMHO one is much better off to simply have an experienced friend or two check a boat over for the cost of drinks than to hire the vast majority of "surveyors".

If you KNOW your prospective surveyor is of the caliber of Boatpoker, that's one thing but I have heard stories like JG's ad nauseum.

The worst part is they seem to cover themselves so well that there is no legal recourse for this sort of incompetence (better termed fraud).

Considering the values involved, small claims court might be a better option than a lawyer. You apparently have written descriptions that are completely false so it might be pretty straightforward to get a few grand back.

I have a question though - how did YOU miss things like mould, rusty engine, oil in the bilge etc.
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  #119  
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Yet more evidence to support my opinion that the vast majority of "surveys" are a meaningless expense. If home inspectors were this bad there would be government action, regulation, legal action etc.

IMHO one is much better off to simply have an experienced friend or two check a boat over for the cost of drinks than to hire the vast majority of "surveyors".

If you KNOW your prospective surveyor is of the caliber of Boatpoker, that's one thing but I have heard stories like JG's ad nauseum.

The worst part is they seem to cover themselves so well that there is no legal recourse for this sort of incompetence (better termed fraud).

Considering the values involved, small claims court might be a better option than a lawyer. You apparently have written descriptions that are completely false so it might be pretty straightforward to get a few grand back.

I have a question though - how did YOU miss things like mould, rusty engine, oil in the bilge etc.
I DIDN'T. They were explained to my satisfaction by those with more skill and the expertise. Especially considering I was paying one of them a pretty penny for that expertise I felt I should trust it. They also came highly recommended by the yard, and I needed a survey for insurance.

The mold/rust were explained away by the dampness of the boat overall from living aboard at anchor, and a rain entry issue at the rear hatch, it was minor surface corrosion, more than I'd expect on a year old land vehicle engine, but on a boat I deferred to those with more knowledge who didn't find it unusual. Knowing now that the part that is rusty tends to rust through from the inside is a bit concerning. Oil in the bilge was explained because of how hard it was to fill the engine vs the atomic 4 that used to be in there, made sense since it is a real pain to get around. I didn't really smell it the first time I was on board, and I didn't know what to look for then for the other issues.
Also bearing in mind, that the bilge I was seeing wasn't actually the real bilge(there's a small hole behind the aft battery to get to it). Every other boat I looked at had a shallower bilge, which looked like what I saw first. I didn't know enough to tell the difference. The oil in the bilge water I can see now having gotten in there is very different from the oil I saw on the surface of what I thought was a great clean bilge.
The cost of dealing with mold/interior/cosmetic issues should have balanced out against the engine and sail value.

Too soon old, too late smart(er).
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

I totally get your position of trusting others. No doubt I would have done the same. While you may be right that little is to be gained by going after anyone, it sounds to me like your surveyor did a poor job.

But hopefully--and it sounds true--you've got a great boat! Judging by the dates, I guess she's got a 2GM20F? Not a bad thing to know you've got (or will have) a new mixing elbow on it. Do you know it's leaking oil, or is the evidence what's in the bilge? Because that stuff could be practically prehistoric.
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