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  #121  
Old 05-07-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

jg, don't get too stressed or feel too frustrated or feel too cheated...
at the end of the day, you're on a boat, and you're on a boat that is still very good value.

If there is an upside to a surveyor's report with glaring omissions and errors, it is that it makes YOU more knowledgeable about your own boat, and the boats in your future.
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  #122  
Old 05-07-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arf145 View Post
I totally get your position of trusting others. No doubt I would have done the same. While you may be right that little is to be gained by going after anyone, it sounds to me like your surveyor did a poor job.

But hopefully--and it sounds true--you've got a great boat! Judging by the dates, I guess she's got a 2GM20F? Not a bad thing to know you've got (or will have) a new mixing elbow on it. Do you know it's leaking oil, or is the evidence what's in the bilge? Because that stuff could be practically prehistoric.
In the 20 minute motor from the anchor in false creek to Granville island the clean white area under the engine down to the bilge got some nice big black oil streaks down it all the way to the bilge. Two owners ago posted a question about the mainshaft oil leak here on sailnet, elected not to fix, confirmed to me that he never fixed it. Previous owner apparently believed it was just spilled oil from filling each time, but when two people haven't fixed a known issue and visible evidence of it still occuring... I'd say it's still there.
Bearing in mind I ran her right at 1800 RPM the whole way, after a suitable warm up period following all the reccomendations for the motor, I'm annoyed.
Bljones:
Not stressed, but certainly pissed off. Taking the supposedly safe choice boat vs the boat you really wanted originally, and finding out the main factors in that decision were falsified(intentionally or not) leaving you at risk with less insurance as I'm thinking that unlike a brand new Yanmar a 16 year old one doesn't have a warranty... and when those factors are actually worse than the boat you really wanted, which would still have fit in the same slip it's not really conducive to a pleased buyer in any way shape or form!
I am tempted to recreate a truthful version of the ad. Some things I accepted as different from the ad like the amount of chain. I would total all the included stuff out at maybe 1000$ including the anchors, and that's being generous I think. She's still a pretty boat, but compared to a fully equipped, beautiful condition one with a large supply of spares, I didn't save enough to make it a great choice.

Even the damn hyperdry(breathing material for under mattreses) was installed wrong side up and grew mold.

I'm thinking a good clean tommorow on my day off, and a sunset in a hammock on deck will sort out my mood, but I'm not there yet!
Previous owner is back Wed night, we'll have a beer and a talk this weekend, I still have faith that he's a decent guy who made some mistakes, rather than a scammer.

Last edited by Jgbrown; 05-07-2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason: It's
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  #123  
Old 05-08-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
the mainshaft oil leak here on sailnet, elected not to fix, confirmed to me that he never fixed it. Previous owner apparently believed it was just spilled oil from filling each time, but when two people haven't fixed a known issue and visible evidence of it still occuring... I'd say it's still there.
When you change the fluids, put a can of "seal sweller" in - sometimes it can help a shaft seal quite a bit.

Bleachy water is the best thing to get rid of mould in my experience.
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  #124  
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

I want to clarify two things since I'm worried these points might have gotten lost in typed form on the internet.
:
Firstly, the surveyor did a great job elsewhere.
The turn around time was a big issue, and not mentioning the value of the engine/sail and their ages being unlikely to be true was not great. They're covered by the caveats in the survey, but I am still a bit annoyed by it.
It wouldn't stop me recommending him to someone with an older boat, who had plenty of lead time for a sale, and was aware that they should have additional inspections for sails/engine if there was any doubt about those before buying, as they are exempt from the survey. His inspections of the deck, hull etc were thorough and comprehensive, I found him courteous, professional and his advice elsewhere was valuable.
I won't be asking him for my money back, but I will be advising him of the motor age, and associated issues, a simple google from my phone proved that engine couldn't have been built in 2010(hindsight...)

The seller is a decent guy, I am cross with him for misleading me, but I don't think he did it on purpose. He sounded quite distressed when I told him what I'd discovered, his advertising was false, and lead me to a decision I wouldn't have made but I don't feel he did it with intent. I do not have any issue with him as a person. I'd still sail with him, or have a beer with him.
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  #125  
Old 05-08-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgbrown View Post
Firstly, the surveyor did a great job elsewhere.

The seller is a decent guy, I am cross with him for misleading me, but I don't think he did it on purpose.
Hmmm. You are a very nice guy--maybe too nice. To me this feels like a "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is a duck" situation.

I bought a boat with a known 20yr old 2GM20F and the surveyor stated that he wasn't doing an engine analysis or anything, wasn't a diesel expert, etc. but he observed the engine while running, looked at the exhaust, checked the real RPM against the tach, checked max RPM, checked general condition of hoses, looked at the primary fuel filter water catcher, and spotted a pretty good (and obvious) fuel leak. I think an engine leaving a black streak below should have been noticed. Seems like the oil-slick bilge should have been noticed.

As for your other duck, maybe he really is that clueless--more pleasant to think that than to believe he lied. But the "new" engine? 100 hours, but with a cut wire to the hour meter? I'm hearing quacks.

Maybe you won't be getting anything back from them, but I don't know that I'd be recommending that surveyor or having a beer with that seller.
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  #126  
Old 05-08-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

You're a good guy, Jeremy.. Karma is on your side.
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  #127  
Old 05-08-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

There is no excuse for a surveyor to not spot the fact that an engine is MUCH older than claimed. Even if no engine survey is done,there are a lot of things happening in the engine compartment that a surveyor needs to look at and comment on.
I also have a hard time believing that the PO did not know that the engine wasn't new. I would be willing to cut him slack if the engine was pulled, completely refurbished and repainted and physically looked new. How long did he own the boat ? If less than a year, wouldn't that be a red flag right there? If there was a new engine, wouldn't there be warranty paper work? Would he not have requested this material from the previous PO when he bought the boat?
On something like a new engine which is a substantial cost item and with that engine being in the boats description I would definitely not turn the other cheek - it is a case of deception!!!

A related question but not related to this particular sale but sales in general: Would an honest sellor refuse to sign an official declaration which is part of the sales contract that his description of the boat is truthfull and accurate to the best of his knowledge and that the sale is null and void with purchase price and costs going to the buyer should the boat have been significantly misrepresented?
Since any broker has weasle words to the extent that they know nothing and are not responsible for anything, would they allow a meeting between seller and buyer to discuss all details of the boat and put the boats condition in writing or is it the brokers job to keep the two parties appart ?
Would the average broker accept a sales contract drawn up by the potential buyer's lawyer that includes protection against misrepresentation? Buyer protection for this sort of thing is standard for the house market here in BC and if you do not declare an accident with a car over a certain amount when you sell it then they can nab you as well.

This is scarry stuff .....
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  #128  
Old 05-09-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Hi:

As a hopeful soonish boat buyer, I have followed this with interest ... and horror!

I would think that if a buyer says something material about the boat, like the engine is new, I would hack in a line into the agreement, something like:

The sellor warrants that the engine is new. This is a material condition that if not true, renders this agreement null and void. The sellor will immediately return the deposit monies ...

Any lawyers here feel free to translate the above into legal such that we all have a template here.

hboy
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  #129  
Old 05-10-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

hboy: in hindsight yes, I should have, but since I felt that I knew less about the sale, I let the buyer use a form bill of sale. If it weren't for the fact that I had saved a copy of the ad from the internet, I would have no recourse. However in my case it's clearly fraudulent misrepresentation, I'm still holding out hope that it wasn't intentional and the seller will come back with a reasonable price adjustment without me dragging him to court. He clearly dated each item, and confirmed verbally to me that it was all done last year, and that he had proof. I have gone through the ad line by line, where there isn't duplication, and there is a date, it is clearly wrong, the least wrong is the batteries, they are 2007 not 2011. Everything else is worse. From saturated and stinking hoses from the head, to the butchery of the V-berth woodwork during the "rebuild", the water under the cushions and moldy foam nothing is what it was supposed to be. The photographs the seller ended up using as examples of Antares before restoration clearly show the same engine, with the same alternator that concerned me! It even shows the same wiring connections that were supposedly a later addition! They actually showed a proper V-berth too.


I spent an entire day gutting the interior, even with a ful face respirator and nitrile gloves I've been feeling sick since, my on deck helper who was less exposed got sick at the same time too, symptoms all match too.

In future I will never trust a surveyor. Considering the premium price, and that the Alberg is very small for a 30'(21' at waterline, and 8.6' beam) I would tend to think the surveyor could at least have been thorough. I know it's not their job, but a simple advisory to walk away, like I've heard of other surveyors giving clients when they found indications of problems or neglect would have been so nice.
After the third "nobody could be this stupid" I would think it would be reasonable to caution a client. Like the holding tank vent tube being run only as far as the air intake dorade box.


In the first two hours yesterday I found so much neglect and so many red flags about this being a project boat that I never would have bought her, if I was a surveyor I would have advised a client immediately that it was likely a big project boat.

I didn't even have to get to the V-berth or head to find them, and considering the Alberg is effectively two settees a couple feet apart, with 2 rows of cupboards, there's not a lot to find wrong!

If I had one piece of advice it would be don't be afraid to really dig into the boat yourself, if the seller won't let you remove things to see underneath or look at anything could be causing a problem, walk away. It's ok to really dig into a boat, I know what to do next time. I was trusting too much in the expertise of an expensive paid expert, and a seller with more experience.
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  #130  
Old 05-17-2012
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Re: Trying another tack... Looking for the right boat near Vancouver, BC.

Somewhat happy ending, I'll post more details later, the seller made good on the problems, with a fair resolution all around, he refunded a portion of the sale, (3k) based on the issues, it was what he had saved by living aboard. We both got less than we expected and both learned a lot. He is also unhappy with the surveyor, without me saying anything about the surveyor he told me what the surveyor told him, and feels that he is now unlikely to trust a surveyor in future.
Considering the most recent finding of damaged deck caused by the delaminated mast beam fixed with Robertson screws, I'm not sure exactly what the surveyor did do properly.
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