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Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

12K views 70 replies 36 participants last post by  flyingriki 
#1 ·
I was looking for a Gemini 105 MC, I looked at several during the last year and found many in a sad shape and a few with exaggerated prices. Last Saturday, while inspecting an MC, we were pointed toward a 1996 M and we were very impressed with the boat, immaculate maintained with many extras, clean engine, new wiring, a 2100 dollar Garmin, a brand new dinghy, new upholstery, a new AC unit etc, etc, etc. So far the best boat we have seen. We offered the owner 15% less than the asking price, he counter offered and we offered 10% less than the asking price and he accepted. Here is the question and dilemma. On the Purchase and Sell Agreement accepting my offer he wrote, "No price reduction after survey". I know I can reject the boat, but then I will be out of the cost of the survey, haul out and my traveling expenses for an out of State trip. What do you guys suggest?
Thanks
 
#42 ·
I'll have to "agree to disagree" with that statement, delite, as every boat I've sold, and there's only been 5 of them, but the "asking price" WAS the "selling price". I take into consideration what the boat needed vs. market value of a boat that didn't need that and priced accordingly. It was interesting in each instance to watch the responses of the folks that purchased or even just looked at the boats as this isn't the "norm" I guess. As a matter of fact, I can pinpoint 3 different people that were rather upset when someone else purchased "their boat" because they each had a hard time digesting what I was saying. It's simple; I've spent enough time on boats of all types to know what needs to be done and what doesn't. I never "over priced" any of those boats, and more than likely was under market value on the majority.

To the OP, glad it "worked out" for you, but I'm not sure what's changed, outside of the fact that words were removed from a piece of paper? I think you're still going to be out the cost of a survey, et al, if this deal doesn't go through, but I guess if you're more comfortable then that's all that matters. I think the biggest issue with this particular seller is there are a LOT of people out in the market just trying to "steal" because of it being such a "buyer's market" and truth be told, it gets rather annoying weeding through all those folks. I wouldn't let it be a reflection on you, but I bet it's safe to say that if the surveyor comes back and says "the brightwork isn't fresh enough" and you try to get a $500 discount you'll more than likely be told to "pound sand", lol.

Good luck, keep us posted, and the MOST important thing is to make sure you take and share plenty of pictures if and when you buy her.
 
#46 ·
I'll have to "agree to disagree" with that statement, delite, as every boat I've sold, and there's only been 5 of them, but the "asking price" WAS the "selling price". .
This is pretty much how I've done it for the few things I have sold. I'm usually not pressed to sell by a certain time and I think I try and be reasonable on price. I've sold two homes like that and neither were what you would call conventional homes, but in both cases there were two buyers that wanted them at the same time.

When we finally get to where we have to sell one or both of our boats I hope it works about the same way. We do realize that we are going to loose money on both of them, but the experiences we have had owning them are priceless.

I have stacks of receipts for both and Ruth wanted to keep a running total, but I hexed that. I said they are only going to be worth what the market will bear when we finally put them up for sale. I keep the receipts so that I can remember what I bought and where in case someone asks or we need to replace something,

Sum

----------------------------

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both

 
#43 · (Edited)
but I bet it's safe to say that if the surveyor comes back and says "the brightwork isn't fresh enough" and you try to get a $500 discount you'll more than likely be told to "pound sand", lol.
This is exactly what I'm talking about...

And if the surveyor comes back and says "the keel/strut and prop are missing....

Then that's a deal "breaker"... Done... no obligation from either party...

Now, if you want, you can start "new" negotiations...or not...

No semantics here...
 
#44 ·
emoney you sound like a very knowledgeable and fair person who knows the market. Many buyers and sellers dont and arent as knowledgeable or fair and some cultures just like to negotiate, in some cases even after the deal is done. Great if you are able to set a price and get exactly what you wanted. Clearly the buyers found you to be honest in what you said about your boats and you offered them at realistic prices. In most cases the dance is somewhat different as you have seen in your own experiences with buyers and their expectations.
 
#47 ·
I had a surveyor look over at me during a survey and say "you know this boat was sunk, right?" Well I didn't, and the seller pretended not to know, despite there being a very concealing house-type trim around the walls, 8 inches above the cabin sole. She must have sunk in her slip and there was a clear waterline 6 inches above the cabin sole.

When inspecting the engine compartment, he said "There was a fire in here." It was a small electrical fire, apparently.

This was a boat that the sellers treated as "their baby". It was a Beneteau 423 "DragonFly" out of Annapolis.

When I pulled out of the deal, they wanted a copy of the survey for free. That was my $800 survey. I would have given them a copy for 1/2 price. But I think they started calling my surveyor directly. Being a few states away, I'm not sure what happened after that, but they stopped calling me for it.

--

On another survey, George Gallup (excellent surveyor) told me flat out that boat was not worth the agreed price. The seller and I never came to agreement on a new price, so I didn't get the boat.

---

Two good reasons to get a survey. Just make sure you can walk away from the deal for any reason if you choose.

Regards,
Brad
 
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#50 ·
Thanks to all of you for your comments and helpful suggestions. The issue was resolved, the seller to the clause off and we are moving forward. I am willing to deal with the minor problems (up to a point) that will be uncovered, but anything major will be up for negotiation. I feel that the seller and sometime the brokers, who do have a financial interest in the transaction, believe that if the buyer spend the money for the survey etc. they are already committed and will not back out. Wrong!
Now, I am looking for a surveyor in the Brunswick, GA area or the Jacksonville, FL area.
 
#51 ·
use captainrated.com (an off shoot of Activecaptain). Create an account, and drill into the area that you wish to find a surveyor. You will find surveyor contacts, and ratings by customers. If you do, please help out by posting a review of whomever you hire.
 
#53 ·
Thanks, I have done a pre-survey on the boat and I have not found any "major" issues. I have educated myself doing not only a great deal of reading on the boat systems, talking to owners, seeing many of the boats for sale, obtaining the boat manual, learning about the design and manufacturing process, learning about the match between the design and its intended use.etc etc. etc I have spent over a year on my search.
I still have to have the survey for insurance purposes. I, however, would prefer a surveyor that is most familiar with sailboat systems.
 
#54 ·
(Apologies for the long post) Interesting to see this thread take shape with some novice buyers generally lining up on one side of the issue, and some experienced sellers generally lining up on the other side.

Some comments in the thread, apparently from the experienced boat seller set, discuss how they know what price they should set for their boat, they sell her for the price they set, and they can't be swayed by someone trying to lowball a deal. There's also some comments from these experienced "boaties" that when they buy a boat, they can survey the boat themselves, and they can set their asking price accurately and not worry about any issues that may come up later in the process, because of their experience. As a buyer, and boating novice, I find that this position tends to be disempowering, in that it appears that the suggestion is that I should expect to take whatever the boat expert seller is saying, at face value. (And let's face it, at my experience level, everyone else is already an expert ahead of me..)

However, I think that there's another side to this coin, (and I'll use myself as the example). First off, in terms of boat sellers, I'm not trying to take unfair advantage of them, in any deal. I just don't want to be taken advantage of, by them. Second, when I do my personal inspection, (if the boat is within a couple of hundred bucks flying/driving time), I'm looking at the things I understand. Stuff like overall cleanliness, (it surprises me that in my short time looking, I've seen several boats where the current owners haven't even cleaned them, in order to prepare for sale). Water damage, canvas, running rigging, and sail condition, water, (or water and other stuff), in the bilge, corrosion in the engine compartment, cracks or blisters in the hull, topsides which buckle when you walk on them, etc.

And that's about it. Based on my inspection, and what I've learned about the boat from other sources, if I want to purchase her, I can proceed to negotiate a price agreed to by both you and I, and we enter into a purchase agreement. At this point I hire a surveyor, whose job it is to inspect the entire boat, fire up all systems, sea trial her, and then write me a report letting me know the condition of everything, based on their expert opinion. I'm not hiring the surveyor for insurance purposes. I'm hiring them to be my expert advisor, and to advise me in the purchase. I also expect the surveyor, based on their expertise to let me know approximate fair value for the boat. If I've misjudged that number in my offer, for any reason, I can guarantee you that we're about to have a conversation. It either is going to begin with I'm rejecting this deal, or I'm not prepared to go forward with this deal at the agreed upon price.

Furthermore I don't agree with the position that once the purchase agreement is signed, I'm obligated to purchase the boat at the agreed upon price as long as the survey only turns up the "normal" wear and tear items. Some comments in the thread suggest the deal should be kept to, unless the survey turns up something "major". So what's major mean to you? Do you know what major means to me? I can guarantee you the meanings will be different. Additionally if I'm negotiating a purchase agreement before I can even inspect the boat, (due to distance), that means that there's the additional hurdle of the personal inspection to factor into this as well.

The fact is that I reserve the right to reject the deal for any reason whatsoever. 1 to 2k survey plus travel costs, isn't going to obligate me to make a purchase that I'm in any way uncomfortable with, any more than it would you. If on the morning of the survey and sea trial I experience you trying to bully and beat down anything raised by my surveyor, or questions asked by me, I can receive a survey that states that your boat is solid gold and exhausts chanel #5, and I'm still rejecting the deal.

Truth is, in a negotiation like this, we become partners right from the outset. We should treat each other as partners until the negotiations are completed, regardless of the purchase outcome. To me that means we should deal with each other honestly, as we would want to be dealt with, and if something turns up during the course of the process we should both be open to discussing it and coming to a solution that works for both parties.

Going back to the OP, (I was eventually going to get back there), I think that it's extremely counter productive to put anything like that clause into the contract. Not only is it not necessary, (because the seller retains the right anyway), nothing good can come from it. It will immediately cause suspicion in the buyer's mind, and set up negotiations for a rocky road, (as evidenced by the existence of this thread). Finally, as far as the art of negotiations is concerned by telegraphing your fear like that, you're already given the buyer information that they can use against you. Instead of treating a prospective new buyer like they were your last unsuccessful buyer, it's usually better to treat them simply as a prospective new buyer.

Jason
 
#56 ·
(Apologies for the long post)....Truth is, in a negotiation like this, we become partners right from the outset. We should treat each other as partners until the negotiations are completed, regardless of the purchase outcome. To me that means we should deal with each other honestly, as we would want to be dealt with, and if something turns up during the course of the process we should both be open to discussing it and coming to a solution that works for both parties.
jasn, your writeup was very good. However, this is the rub. If you've sold enough boats (and aircraft in my case), you can become suspicious of buyers. Many do try to take advantage and nickle and dime the final purchase price for previously disclosed or very obvious items. If you read around this site, you will see some reportedly experienced buyers actually suggesting you do so.

There is nothing wrong with having a surveyor act as your professional advisor, when the buyer lacks the skill themselves. I know quite a bit about most systems, but I would never trust myself to buy without a surveyor. That is most often the case. It's when the buyer made an offer on a 20 year old boat and begins to ask for it to be returned to near new condition that you aren't dealing with a novice, you're dealing with a lack of common sense.

Here's an example. A surveyor may note that a 20 year old seacock shows corrosion, but remains functional, and note it as recommended maintenance down the road. The seller is going to say, no kidding, you will expect to have plenty of maintenance down the road on a 20 year old boat. Some buyers will try to negotiate a price reduction to replace every seacock on the boat, while the survey did not say they had to be replaced now.

Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks. If the buyer just doesn't like the overall condition of the boat, when the surveyor tells them that they will have lots of maintenance after they buy it, then the expected outcome should be to walk away.

I bought a boat that was advertised literally as an "11 out of 10". Unless that is what the offer says, you can't negotiate for it later.
 
#55 ·
Some people just don't have the balls to commit...have no clue what they are getting themselves into...have unrealistic expectations that everything should be perfect and look for any excuse to run away

Not surprising divorce rate is as high as it is...
 
#68 ·
I would love to bash some unscrupulous sellers for a minute. I had one that I went to see that didn't have the dinghy, nor the sail inventory as advertised. How does one misrepresent these? They weren't described incorrectly, they didn't exist.

Before I went to even look at another, I learned that it had run aground at full throttle and all but tore the keel clean off, buckled the hull and took on two feet of water. All repaired, but wold have been discovered as undisclosed upon survey. I actually found out when calling a surveyor to get lined up. He knew the boat's reputation.
 
#70 ·
Well, I have two experiences to relate. Almost bought a (boat) spring of 2011. Was a little leery of the seller to begin w/ due to the circumstances and he really was pushing to complete the sale. I wanted to get a survey (which he said would not be grounds to renegotiate). I was happy w/ that as it was a good price. I just wanted to be sure the boat was as advertised and had no inherent, serious defects. Found out that the rudder was completely delaminated as well as the cored transom soaked. And being the rudder had had the bearings replaced just a couple years earlier he had to know. ( I found out later that was the case!) While the survey is ongoing, he's calling me to find out when it will be over, how soon can he get the $$$, he REALLY needs to get this deal done. He also was telling me that he was selling to concentrate on family issues, his mom was sick, kids, etc.. blahblahblah. I was already pissed b/c he wasn't straight w/ me about known defects.
I had a call in to someone I knew could give me a straight answer on the approx. cost to fix the few things the survey turned up and I told the seller this in the late afternoon. Told him I would have an answer in the morning but I was still intending to go through w/ the deal; I just wanted to know what I was getting into. He went ballistic, ranted, raved, yelled. To his credit he did call back later w/ an apology.
However, I went home and thought about it and decided I didn't NEED this boat and I didn't want a boat that came w/ that bad karma and if anything else turned up I'd be pi$$ed at myself. Told him to take a hike. Found out later that the whole time he was working the deal w/ me and I was lining up a surveyor he was playing someone else too! Oh, and he was selling and had to get it done b/c he was buying a bigger boat! Which I saw him in later that summer. Glad I walked.

Now the boat I DID buy several months later... Having looked at a LOT of boats that were in crappy condition, I called the broker and he told me it was a one owner boat and the guy was an engineer, the boat was in really good condition and he told me what was lacking- windlass, dodger, refrigeration. I said okay, wife and I flew up to see the boat.
Having been around boats, worked on boats and read the boat buying trip thread here on SN ;) decided things looked pretty good. Ended up making an offer and came to terms. Flew back up for the survey. Turned out my impressions were spot on.
BUT the survey did turn up some things I would NOT have known about. Need overcurrent breaker, galvanic isolator, new propane line. Few other minor things. Needed them done before launching for insurance purposes. I had these things done up north at a cost of about $1500. Otherwise a fine boat. We did ask for some relief on the price b/c of the survey but the owner said no. I was okay w/ that; never hurts to ask. I could have walked but the boat really was (is) a nice boat and it was a fair deal.
Do your research, know what you're looking at and take your time. Don't let someone rush you into a deal. Boats are NOT a necessity.
 
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