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  #11  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

I think it's a fine clause, and doesn't really change the facts of the deal.

Without the clause, he has no obligation to change the price based on the survey, you can ask for a discount, but he can still say no. He's just letting you know up front he doesn't want to haggle.

I sometimes think people take the whole haggle after a survey thing to far very often. For instance, if the price is already set to reflect an issue, you can't expect the price to be reduced after the survey confirms the issue. Surveys help you look for major things that might not be known or disclosed. If there's something major on the survey that wasn't known before, the buyer decides if its a deal breaker, and the owner has the option (not obligation) to change his asking price if he feels it's warranted.

For instance, when we bought our boat, the previous owner had it for 27 years, and had not replaced the rigging. He told us that, we knew it needed to be replaced ASAP before we had a survey done, and we knew the price reflected that. We couldn't very well ask for a discount for the rig when the price was more then fair with a bad rig...

Bottom line, don't sweat it. If there's nothing new on the survey, and the price still seems fair given the condition of the boat, buy it. If the survey turns up a few things that are major, and now the price no longer seems fair, walk away. If they owner then sees that his price isn't fair, given the major issues discovered he didn't know about, perhaps he'll change his mind and lower the asking price after all to reflect the new information.
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  #12  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

The Seller's caveat is kind of meaningless other than putting you on notice that he/she doesn't intend to reduce the price further if you do not accept the Survey/Sea Trial "as is". In fact, however, if a major flaw is discovered (unlikely given your description of the yacht), it is something he/she will have to correct or, if not, disclose to the next prospective buyer who will certainly adjust their price accordingly. Considering carrying costs alone, a negotiated price adjustment with you, if reasonable, is more sensible. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to find things that do need correction/repair during a routine survey of a good boat--out of date Fire Extinguishers, Flares and the like, battery cable covers, battery tie-downs etc.--that are not material and really have little/no effect on the value of the yacht but may involve some costs to "correct". The unfortunate fact is that there is always something that needs correction on every boat, bar none. It is the nature of the beast. Further, get behind the idea that you will likely spend 10% to 20% of the purchase price of the yacht for upgrades/repairs in the first year of so of your ownership of the yacht.

FWIW...
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  #13  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

That would be fine for any obvious defects - what you see is what you buy.

It is not acceptable for latent defects. If the survey reveals recommendations that you could not have reasonably discovered by your thorough pre-contract inspection, then you and the seller should be willing to re-negotiate, especially if you have reason to believe the seller must have known about the defects.

If you are using the standard broker's contract as some members advise, you have very little recourse in any event, since the contract is largely conditional until after the survey takes place (and you have already spent hundreds or thousands of dollars, thus putting you over the proverbial barrell). In this buyer's market, I have advocated using a buyer's contract that requires the seller to reveal known latent defects, among other things.

Change the clause to discover the seller's willingness to allow re-negotiations for recommendations concerning latent defects revealed by the marine survey, or walk. Othewise you are out all the costs to survey the boat with no expectation of any re-negotiation.

An honest, reasonable seller should be willing to agree to that because he or she would be morally (and perhaps legally) obliged to reveal the latent physical defect to the next buyer (or face a fraud-in-the-inducement claim for the buyer's survey costs and expenses - depending on the contract used).
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Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

I have never seen a survey come out 100% positive, and It would take a very brave or stupid surveyor to give one.
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  #15  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

The problem is that brokers will generally not list what is wrong with a boat. Their hope is that you pay asking price and skip the survey. That only happens in fairly-tale land.

When I sold my last two boats, I clearly stated what was wrong with the boats and included that in the asking price. Anything above and beyond those issues could be negotiated after the survey.

Both boats sold for asking price or within 2% and for at least 10% more than asking price of YW boats. Very little haggling, no brokers, happy buyer and seller. Nice and clean.

I bought my last boat from a private owner the same way. He used the same technique of listing what the boat needed and included it in the asking price.

The whole yacht broker business would work much better if they used this method and had buyers/sellers with realistic expectations.
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Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

As stated, that clause does not technically change anything. No contract ever says "post survey adjustments are welcome"

What they're telling you is they are going to be hard arses. To be fair, there are many buyers that use the survey to chew down a reasonable price, despite it only identifying the obvious. I sympathize with sellers that have to deal with that. I've seen it proposed by some on this board. It isn't honest.

However, I would have a conversation with the seller about latent undisclosed defects they may be unaware of, if any. If zero change is zero change, despite potentially finding a fatal flaw, you have your risk well identified. They may admit they just won't accept nickle and dime stuff that you should have noticed yourself.
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

p.s. I once put a deposit on a boat, flew to the caribbean, witnessed the survey and rejected the boat, even thought the seller was fully willing to correct the defects. I just didn't like how the boat seemed like she was treated. I was more concerned that it would become a maintenance dock queen down the road. Lost some money on the survey, but would have lost more. Got my deposit back. That's the idea behind a survey.
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  #18  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Doesn't mean a thing, you can still walk away - assuming you aren't leaving a deposit behind.
If you've made a deposit - and try to haggle post survey - you might lose the deposit if it is clearly stated to be non-refundable.
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  #19  
Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
To be fair, there are many buyers that use the survey to chew down a reasonable price, despite it only identifying the obvious. I sympathize with sellers that have to deal with that. I've seen it proposed by some on this board. It isn't honest..
This is what I was alluding to as "double dipping"....

"YOU" are the primary value assor in the transaction...you looked the boat over and you made the offer...

If accepted that should be the selling price....

The survey (and the home inspector) are just there to cover all the bases and make sure there were no hidden or undiscovered , major, defeciencies which may affect the value of said item...

If found, that would negate the deal, period...

And then it's time to start a "new" offer on what is now known...seller may want to correct to original offer specs, or take repairs in account when "you" make new offer...

But that is major hidden/unknown issues (deal breakers) not the mundane and obvious and easily recognizeable issues (which were taken into account in the "first" offer....
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Old 09-26-2012
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Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidd View Post

And then it's time to start a "new" offer on what is now known...seller may want to correct to original offer specs, or take repairs in account when "you" make new offer...

But that is major hidden/unknown issues (deal breakers) not the mundane and obvious and easily recognizeable issues (which were taken into account in the "first" offer....
You can say the deal has started over but, that's just semantics. I think you're actually in agreement with me and other posters. I don't believe anyone is saying you should try to get a lower price because of an out of date fire extinguisher but, if there is damage below water line, substandard wiring, engine has obvious problems.....

When I last sold a house I had the buyer try to wear me down on silly things after the survey. My response was take it or leave it. He took it.

I've walked from a boat after survey. seller was there and argued with the surveyor the entire day. Asking top dollar and obviously not willing to come down on problems the survey found, split rudder, delamination in glass below water line (plywood below water line to boot, old tartan 37). Owner struck me as kind of person to put a penny in a fuse box.

Friend walked after hearing that's my final counter offer on a 47' calibre. Two months later owner was calling him and asking why he hadn't heard anything. I ended up helping him sail it back from Trinidad. Point is these things are always negotiable and one shouldn't let a statement like what started this thread deter you from going ahead.
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