Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey" - Page 6 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree43Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #51  
Old 09-28-2012
eherlihy's Avatar
Learning the HARD way...
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 3,531
Thanks: 113
Thanked 61 Times in 60 Posts
Rep Power: 8
eherlihy will become famous soon enough
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

use captainrated.com (an off shoot of Activecaptain). Create an account, and drill into the area that you wish to find a surveyor. You will find surveyor contacts, and ratings by customers. If you do, please help out by posting a review of whomever you hire.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #52  
Old 09-28-2012
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,361
Thanks: 11
Thanked 122 Times in 90 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
We're pulling for you. It's best that you are comfortable, but im afraid this was a shallow victory. Nothing has changed. The seller will still not be required to accept any post survey adjustments and their frame of mind to do so has already been telegraphed.
Bingo!! He may have removed the "clause" to make you "feel better" moving forward but he may still choose to reject any nickel and dime BS after the survey and is under no obligation to re-negotiate a lower price deficiencies or not.

Clause or no clause the owner has his/her bottom line and I suspect the OP may have hit it already.

You can always try and re-negotiate but the owner may still tell you to pound sand, clause or no clause.. I've told buyers to pound sand more than once.. Each time the buyers came back to the "agreed price" because the nickel and dime stuff was all BS stuff that had been noted up front before they even made the offer. The surveys found nothing not already disclosed to them yet it did not stop them from trying to use it as a renegotiation tool, which it is not intended to be..

My answer is always simple; "Seller is now offering XXX" and I just respond... "No".....


If you are buying a boat and can't do a competent assessment on your own then you need to accept that 2k or more is going to be eaten up in the "looking process" by way of surveys.

I conduct all my own pre-survey, surveys but still have to pay for a NAMS or SAMS survey to acquire insurance. I have yet to have any surveyor catch all the items I have or hit me with any surprises. I know not all can do this but you can certainly try and educate yourself enough so that there are no "big" surprises.

This is often a six figure venture yet buyers often spend more time educating themselves on a phone, computer, television or used car purchase than they do on a significantly more expensive boat purchase, sad really.
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 09-28-2012 at 11:23 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #53  
Old 09-28-2012
nmejicano's Avatar
Capt Nery
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 26
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
nmejicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Thanks, I have done a pre-survey on the boat and I have not found any "major" issues. I have educated myself doing not only a great deal of reading on the boat systems, talking to owners, seeing many of the boats for sale, obtaining the boat manual, learning about the design and manufacturing process, learning about the match between the design and its intended use.etc etc. etc I have spent over a year on my search.
I still have to have the survey for insurance purposes. I, however, would prefer a surveyor that is most familiar with sailboat systems.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #54  
Old 09-30-2012
jasn's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 49
Thanks: 35
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
jasn is on a distinguished road
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

(Apologies for the long post) Interesting to see this thread take shape with some novice buyers generally lining up on one side of the issue, and some experienced sellers generally lining up on the other side.

Some comments in the thread, apparently from the experienced boat seller set, discuss how they know what price they should set for their boat, they sell her for the price they set, and they can't be swayed by someone trying to lowball a deal. There's also some comments from these experienced "boaties" that when they buy a boat, they can survey the boat themselves, and they can set their asking price accurately and not worry about any issues that may come up later in the process, because of their experience. As a buyer, and boating novice, I find that this position tends to be disempowering, in that it appears that the suggestion is that I should expect to take whatever the boat expert seller is saying, at face value. (And let's face it, at my experience level, everyone else is already an expert ahead of me..)

However, I think that there's another side to this coin, (and I'll use myself as the example). First off, in terms of boat sellers, I'm not trying to take unfair advantage of them, in any deal. I just don't want to be taken advantage of, by them. Second, when I do my personal inspection, (if the boat is within a couple of hundred bucks flying/driving time), I'm looking at the things I understand. Stuff like overall cleanliness, (it surprises me that in my short time looking, I've seen several boats where the current owners haven't even cleaned them, in order to prepare for sale). Water damage, canvas, running rigging, and sail condition, water, (or water and other stuff), in the bilge, corrosion in the engine compartment, cracks or blisters in the hull, topsides which buckle when you walk on them, etc.

And that's about it. Based on my inspection, and what I've learned about the boat from other sources, if I want to purchase her, I can proceed to negotiate a price agreed to by both you and I, and we enter into a purchase agreement. At this point I hire a surveyor, whose job it is to inspect the entire boat, fire up all systems, sea trial her, and then write me a report letting me know the condition of everything, based on their expert opinion. I'm not hiring the surveyor for insurance purposes. I'm hiring them to be my expert advisor, and to advise me in the purchase. I also expect the surveyor, based on their expertise to let me know approximate fair value for the boat. If I've misjudged that number in my offer, for any reason, I can guarantee you that we're about to have a conversation. It either is going to begin with I'm rejecting this deal, or I'm not prepared to go forward with this deal at the agreed upon price.

Furthermore I don't agree with the position that once the purchase agreement is signed, I'm obligated to purchase the boat at the agreed upon price as long as the survey only turns up the "normal" wear and tear items. Some comments in the thread suggest the deal should be kept to, unless the survey turns up something "major". So what's major mean to you? Do you know what major means to me? I can guarantee you the meanings will be different. Additionally if I'm negotiating a purchase agreement before I can even inspect the boat, (due to distance), that means that there's the additional hurdle of the personal inspection to factor into this as well.

The fact is that I reserve the right to reject the deal for any reason whatsoever. 1 to 2k survey plus travel costs, isn't going to obligate me to make a purchase that I'm in any way uncomfortable with, any more than it would you. If on the morning of the survey and sea trial I experience you trying to bully and beat down anything raised by my surveyor, or questions asked by me, I can receive a survey that states that your boat is solid gold and exhausts chanel #5, and I'm still rejecting the deal.

Truth is, in a negotiation like this, we become partners right from the outset. We should treat each other as partners until the negotiations are completed, regardless of the purchase outcome. To me that means we should deal with each other honestly, as we would want to be dealt with, and if something turns up during the course of the process we should both be open to discussing it and coming to a solution that works for both parties.

Going back to the OP, (I was eventually going to get back there), I think that it's extremely counter productive to put anything like that clause into the contract. Not only is it not necessary, (because the seller retains the right anyway), nothing good can come from it. It will immediately cause suspicion in the buyer's mind, and set up negotiations for a rocky road, (as evidenced by the existence of this thread). Finally, as far as the art of negotiations is concerned by telegraphing your fear like that, you're already given the buyer information that they can use against you. Instead of treating a prospective new buyer like they were your last unsuccessful buyer, it's usually better to treat them simply as a prospective new buyer.

Jason
smackdaddy likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #55  
Old 09-30-2012
Squidd's Avatar
Superior Sailor
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Eagle River Wi.
Posts: 906
Thanks: 3
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Squidd is on a distinguished road
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Some people just don't have the balls to commit...have no clue what they are getting themselves into...have unrealistic expectations that everything should be perfect and look for any excuse to run away

Not surprising divorce rate is as high as it is...
__________________
"Might as well cast off...If anything is gonna happen...It's gonna happen out there..."
"Captin Ron"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #56  
Old 09-30-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,988
Thanks: 10
Thanked 138 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasn View Post
(Apologies for the long post)....Truth is, in a negotiation like this, we become partners right from the outset. We should treat each other as partners until the negotiations are completed, regardless of the purchase outcome. To me that means we should deal with each other honestly, as we would want to be dealt with, and if something turns up during the course of the process we should both be open to discussing it and coming to a solution that works for both parties.
jasn, your writeup was very good. However, this is the rub. If you've sold enough boats (and aircraft in my case), you can become suspicious of buyers. Many do try to take advantage and nickle and dime the final purchase price for previously disclosed or very obvious items. If you read around this site, you will see some reportedly experienced buyers actually suggesting you do so.

There is nothing wrong with having a surveyor act as your professional advisor, when the buyer lacks the skill themselves. I know quite a bit about most systems, but I would never trust myself to buy without a surveyor. That is most often the case. It's when the buyer made an offer on a 20 year old boat and begins to ask for it to be returned to near new condition that you aren't dealing with a novice, you're dealing with a lack of common sense.

Here's an example. A surveyor may note that a 20 year old seacock shows corrosion, but remains functional, and note it as recommended maintenance down the road. The seller is going to say, no kidding, you will expect to have plenty of maintenance down the road on a 20 year old boat. Some buyers will try to negotiate a price reduction to replace every seacock on the boat, while the survey did not say they had to be replaced now.

Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks. If the buyer just doesn't like the overall condition of the boat, when the surveyor tells them that they will have lots of maintenance after they buy it, then the expected outcome should be to walk away.

I bought a boat that was advertised literally as an "11 out of 10". Unless that is what the offer says, you can't negotiate for it later.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #57  
Old 09-30-2012
Maine Sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 5,361
Thanks: 11
Thanked 122 Times in 90 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice Maine Sail is just really nice
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks.
Bingo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
If the buyer just doesn't like the overall condition of the boat, when the surveyor tells them that they will have lots of maintenance after they buy it, then the expected outcome should be to walk away.
Sadly very often lack of "buyer" homework, lack of knowledge and a focus so ridiculously honed in on the ultimate bottom line purchase price causes many to lose BEAUTIFUL boats. The top 2% condition boats almost always, and I use the word almost for a reason because there are always exceptions, go to the most experienced buyers who;

A) know what they want
B) know exactly what they are looking at
C) recognize a great value or fair asking price
D) Have bought an sold many times
E) know all the details of the boat they are offering on
F) have looked at numerous other examples of the model

Good boats don't last on the market and bad boats rot into the ground. Some top condition boats never even hit the market. Experienced buyers seek them out and make offers on them despite the vessel not technically being "for sale". We've had a a few people ask us to sell our current boat but we are not ready to sell. Never hurts to ask! These are EXPERIENCED buyers...! Owners selling boats on this end of the condition spectrum know the value too and don't often succumb to "nickle and dime" dances with inexperienced buyers, simply because they don't have to.

When we sold our Catalina 310 I knew she was the cleanest, best equipped and best cared for example on the market. Of course I had studied the market as a seller so knew exactly what I was competing against. Using "Sold Boat" data and the other examples I priced our boat for what she was worth.

The first looker made an offer. My answer was "sorry no" and based on his offer I countered at full asking price because I knew how the "dance" would go with an inexperienced buyer... I knew he would walk and really did not care because I knew another buyer would soon come along.. He left in a huff "thinking" he made a good offer. He had not because he did not know the market other than "most boats" sell for 10-15% less than asking price. He had incorrectly lumped a "pristine" vessel in with the rest of the crap on the market that often does sell for 10-15% less than asking. If he knew more he'd have known the boat was in the top 0.1% of condition and that these boats rarely even get discounted a percent or two beyond asking price, because they don't have to.

After walking off he then proceeded to look at the other boats on the East Coast market spending more in air fare and travel then he would have by just making a "reasonable" offer up front.

By the time he came back, knowing the boat represented a tremendous value, she was under contract with a more experienced buyer. The experienced buyer made an EXCELLENT offer that was based on years of experience and the fact that he too had done his homework.

During the survey the battery charger fried (literally at the dock during the survey). That was the only item he tried to re-negotiate on. Everything else, like a small scratch on one of the dodger windows, and some gelcoat repair and some already resolved warranty items to "watch" had already been fully disclosed. He asked for $700.00 to replace the charger. I told him the charger would be operational within 72 hours, which it was, and told him the price was still the price. I fixed the charger, at my cost, which was far from $700.00. He bought the boat with no further nickle and dime dancing.

Boat was worth what was being asked, I knew it, buyer knew it, and knew a good value when he saw it. Two days after the closing the first guy came back wanting to make a "much more reasonable offer" but he had already lost it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I bought a boat that was advertised literally as an "11 out of 10". Unless that is what the offer says, you can't negotiate for it later.
That's the boat you want to buy! Oh, you can try to renegotiate but a seller of an 11 out of 10 or top 2%er is likely going to slough you off because they already know the value and that another guy with buying experience will soon come along and recognize the value....

Different boats sell differently. The junker that has sat on the market for 2 years will likely be able to be negotiated down after survey because the seller has no real clue as to condition or value.

In my experience;

Inexperienced sellers/owners most often sell boats to inexperienced buyers

Experienced sellers/owners most often sell boats to experienced buyers

conversely;

Inexperienced buyers rarely end up with the cleanest, best equipped and best maintained boats which costs them far more over the duration of ownership.


Experienced buyers most often end up with the cleanest, best equipped and best maintained boats costing them far less over the duration of ownership.



Disclaimer: NONE of this is aimed at anyone in this tread, especially the OP. It is from my own experience over 40+ years of boating and buying, selling and owning LOTS of boats.
sailingfool, arf145, MMR and 2 others like this.
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 09-30-2012 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #58  
Old 09-30-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,988
Thanks: 10
Thanked 138 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
...That's the boat you want to buy! Oh, you can try to renegotiate but a seller of an 11 out of 10 or top 2%er is likely going to slough you off because they already know the value and that another guy with buying experience will soon come along and recognize the value........
I agree. I've bought a bunch of "good values" over the years, from cars to boats to aircraft, and each to an item required me to put the money in after purchase instead. In some cases, even more.

For trivia, in the example I gave above, the surveyor determined that the AGM winch batts (two 12v in series) would not last more than 10 or 15 mins. I did not notice that when I looked her over, which was while she was on the hard and stored inside. I believe the seller didn't know either, as she wasn't commissioned for the season yet. That's not 11 out of 10, so the seller installed two new ones. He also identified that the rear white nav light was obscured by the dinghy and should have been remounted where visible or was in violation for the delivery. Again, for a regular purchase, sellers shouldn't have to deal with it. For an 11 out of 10, that got fixed too. But I paid probably 10 or 15% more than the next best example of her on the market. That's the point.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #59  
Old 09-30-2012
ASA and PSIA Instructor
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,456
Thanks: 6
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 15
sailingfool will become famous soon enough
Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Bingo!
...The first looker made an offer. My answer was "sorry no" and based on his offer I countered at full asking price because I knew how the "dance" would go with an inexperienced buyer... I knew he would walk and really did not care because I knew another buyer would soon come along.. He left in a huff "thinking" he made a good offer. He had not because he did not know the market other than "most boats" sell for 10-15% less than asking price. He had incorrectly lumped a "pristine" vessel in with the rest of the crap on the market that often does sell for 10-15% less than asking. If he knew more he'd have known the boat was in the top 0.1% of condition and that these boats rarely even get discounted a percent or two beyond asking price, because they don't have to. ...
Considering the recurring posts about "buying strategies" which differ solely by how large a discount to ask off an asking price..10%, 25%...50%!! egad. You have finally posted the ultimate advice on buying a sailboat.

This post should be a sticky!

Buying a boat should be all about value...and can only be approached by a rigorous effort to definite and evaluate value. The relationship between value and asking price is very haphazard and unreliable... Strategies for "% off..." offers, are only different twists on how a buyer can guarantee to screw himself in buying a boat.
__________________
Certified...in several regards...

Last edited by sailingfool; 09-30-2012 at 02:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #60  
Old 09-30-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 377
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Jgbrown is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
jasn, your writeup was very good. However, this is the rub. If you've sold enough boats (and aircraft in my case), you can become suspicious of buyers. Many do try to take advantage and nickle and dime the final purchase price for previously disclosed or very obvious items. If you read around this site, you will see some reportedly experienced buyers actually suggesting you do so.

There is nothing wrong with having a surveyor act as your professional advisor, when the buyer lacks the skill themselves. I know quite a bit about most systems, but I would never trust myself to buy without a surveyor. That is most often the case. It's when the buyer made an offer on a 20 year old boat and begins to ask for it to be returned to near new condition that you aren't dealing with a novice, you're dealing with a lack of common sense.

Here's an example. A surveyor may note that a 20 year old seacock shows corrosion, but remains functional, and note it as recommended maintenance down the road. The seller is going to say, no kidding, you will expect to have plenty of maintenance down the road on a 20 year old boat. Some buyers will try to negotiate a price reduction to replace every seacock on the boat, while the survey did not say they had to be replaced now.

Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks. If the buyer just doesn't like the overall condition of the boat, when the surveyor tells them that they will have lots of maintenance after they buy it, then the expected outcome should be to walk away.

I bought a boat that was advertised literally as an "11 out of 10". Unless that is what the offer says, you can't negotiate for it later.
Trusting a costly(2x going rate) pre purchase surveyor is how I got where I am today, with 4 months in and yet to even sail around the bay.
I'll be replacing my totally non functioning seacocks next haul out. At least I'm learning a lot. I knew project boats like vehicles are usually a losing battle unless it's just sitting neglect, not decades of ignored maintenance.


I bought a project misrepresented as a 9/10 (all major work done in preparation for cruising south, new engine, sail etc just needing exterior trim sorted, and minor cosmetics).
Now that I've spent the same again as the high sale price, she's almost what I thought I was buying in the first place.
Next buyer will get what I thought I was getting, and at the same price I paid.



Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Seacock" vs. "ballcock" or "ball valve?" SEMIJim Gear & Maintenance 18 09-02-2013 05:31 PM
VIDEO: Coast Guard Academy Welcomes "Blue Goose" and "Stormy Petrel" - Patch.com NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-28-2012 07:50 AM
Trusting a "Recent" Survey? campbdon Boat Review and Purchase Forum 16 11-26-2008 02:41 PM
C270 Main Sail "stack Pack", Quick Cover", "lazy Bag" Install randy22556 Catalina 1 02-28-2007 11:53 AM
Boat "examination" instead of a survey Pamlicotraveler Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 08-23-2006 03:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:31 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.