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post #21 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

Another aspect is the strength required by the relatively short chord/expanded bulb type keels.. I don't think lead alone would be strong enough to prevent the bulb from eventually bending the keel.

A steel internal structure or an iron 'fin' with a lead bulb seems to be the practice there.

We've owned 3 iron keeled boats and 2 lead keels.. the first two had never been properly sealed and the keels were a mess until we did so. Our current boat has iron, well sealed and faired and it's been fine.

Given the choice I'd probably still go for lead, but today the market is full of iron keels so you might be severely limiting your options if that's a 'deal breaker' for you.

Ron

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post #22 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

I agree that it is less wetted surface with lead. With full keel and interior ballast then lead is going to make a significant difference regardless of cost, but with external keels, particularly fin ones, the added structural strength of steel makes for more streamlined shapes.

To the thread - I'm absolutely amazed that we haven't degenerated in a downward spiral regarding plastic production boats yet!


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Last edited by Zanshin; 10-08-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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post #23 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

I have read that many of the European boats use iron instead of lead due to regulations against heavy metals more than the advantage of one over the other. Cost is obviously a big reason iron is chosen. I am glad to read about people who have had good success sealing iron keels, perhaps we only read about those who have problems because they are seeking help while those who do it successfully don's advertize it much. I have looked at a few boats that had iron keels and thought of it as a major disadvantage.
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post #24 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
People trash talk iron keels a lot. Undoubtedly lead is best but iron works well as long as the lower density is accounted for in the design. They can rust if not sealed in epoxy but if they ARE sealed, it isn't the maintenance nightmare some suggest.

Bill Garden figured iron was better for cruising boats that sometimes have to "feel" their way into anchorages because it bounces off any obstructions while lead, due to its softness, "forms" around the obstruction and transmits more impact into the hull.

I've seen iron keeled boats bounce off rocks and it looked exactly like he described.

One nice aspect of iron keels is that the bolts (studs actually) can be withdrawn and inspected as well as easily replaced - not so for lead.
Boats are not made to bounce on the rocks but if that happens a lead keel has advantages. While the all iron keel will deform very little transmitting to the hull attachment point (that is much weaker) all the force of the impact, a lead keel will deform under the impact absorbing in that deformation a lot of energy. The energy transmitted to the hull attachment point will be far less.

I had saw once a wauquiez that had hit rocks hard at speed: The lead keel was incredibly bent but not even a small fracture on the point the keel meet the hull. I was very impressed.

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post #25 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

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Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
I have read that many of the European boats use iron instead of lead due to regulations against heavy metals more than the advantage of one over the other. Cost is obviously a big reason iron is chosen. I am glad to read about people who have had good success sealing iron keels, perhaps we only read about those who have problems because they are seeking help while those who do it successfully don's advertize it much. I have looked at a few boats that had iron keels and thought of it as a major disadvantage.
If it is like that why all expensive European brands use lead keels? and why many of those that use iron offer an expensive upgrade for a lead keel?

To give you an idea normally the upgrade on a 40ft boat for a lead keel costs about 10 000€. Almost all prefer to buy with that money a bow thruster.

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post #26 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

I just checked and spot market industrial pricing for lead is at US$2080 per metric ton, while mild iron/steel/scrap for use in casting is just a bit over 1/10 of that. Even with the higher costs involved in heating, cleaning and casting the iron there is still a big savings with steel for the manufacturers. I just did a quick calculation and the price difference on my keel runs at about US$25,000 comparing the two metals!


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post #27 of 36 Old 10-08-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

Zanshin,

That is a bunch of money be it US$ or Euro's! Hence why the lower priced brands will be using Iron vs lead. $25G for an Oyster your boats size, is peanuts, ie less than 1%. for your boat, 5% or so! A much bigger chunk of the puzzle. For my boat with 2400 lbs of iron, that is $2000, or about 3-4% difference in initial cost.

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post #28 of 36 Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

Not to get too far off topic here. A thought, maybe sloop can reflect on BG's thoughts as I did.....While BG does say iron is better. maybe in HIS boat designs, being as he designed mostly from what I can tell full keels. They can bounce if you will a bit better than fin's can, hence why and iron ballast might be better from this standpoint. Where as lead in a fin, as paulo points out would be better, with the give being a softer material.

Please note, lets keep this to an iron vs lead part of the disscusion, not merits of fin vs full. There is another rather large thread elsewhere to go into that part of the disCUSSion.

At the end of the day, a jeanneau would probably work well for the OP, as would a Catalina or beneteau in reality.

Marty

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post #29 of 36 Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

Hey to bring it back to topic, one of the iron keels I was looking at belongs to a Jeanneau Sunrise, but unfortunately it sold before I could even look at it. I like them and especially the Gin Fizz and the Sunrise seem really solid boats with some real passage-making history even though that was likely not the intent when originally designed and made. They seemed to be strongly built for a production boat. I don't know about the current production line and how much influence Beneteau has influenced the line. Not that Beneteau makes a weak or inferior product, just their focus seemed to be a bit different.
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post #30 of 36 Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Tell Me About Jeanneaus

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Not to get too far off topic here. A thought, maybe sloop can reflect on BG's thoughts as I did.....While BG does say iron is better. maybe in HIS boat designs, being as he designed mostly from what I can tell full keels. They can bounce if you will a bit better than fin's can, hence why and iron ballast might be better from this standpoint. Where as lead in a fin, as paulo points out would be better, with the give being a softer material.

Please note, lets keep this to an iron vs lead part of the disscusion, not merits of fin vs full. There is another rather large thread elsewhere to go into that part of the disCUSSion.

At the end of the day, a jeanneau would probably work well for the OP, as would a Catalina or beneteau in reality. Marty
I really can't say, not being a materials engineer. With a lead keel deforming, it seems to me that all the stress energy is contained within the boat. When an iron keel bounces off, I don't know where or how the energy is dissipated.

I have grounded hard with a lead fin and I know that the absorption of energy by the lead deforming doesn't feel like much - it was quite a shock.

I've never grounded an iron keel so I have no personal comparison, I just thought that Garden had the experience to know the difference after 1000 boats or so.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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