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post #21 of 32 Old 10-27-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

...wow guys - all great advice/wisdom. I will definitely post the outcome...

thanks
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post #22 of 32 Old 10-27-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Caleb - engine is the Yanmar 3GMD-
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post #23 of 32 Old 10-27-2012
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Andy, I'm a curmudgeon, cynic, and pessimist and the nicest thing about being a pessimist is that it is always a PLEASANT surprise to be wrong.

I'd run away from the boat.

Compression under the mast is not fixed by adding a plate. It is fixed, like the delamination in the side decks, by openingup the deck, removing all the bad coring, and replacing it. That can be a major, exensive, and expensive repair. If you have no experience at this and don't want to gamble on removing the skin from the deck and rebuilding it--ask a local fibgerglass shop for estimates. Show them the survey and some pix of the boat. I suspect their estimate will shock your pants off.

If that doesn't send you running...
The good news is that liferaft, etc. business just means the surveyor is using boilerplate to pad out the size of his report. Your choices of safety gear have nothing to do with the condition of the boat.
The wiring, well old wiring needs work and the price can add up even if you do all the labor, but that's part of an old boat.
The gooseneck, on the other hand, if that's worn you probably can't just buy replacement parts, you are looking at machine shop work. Some pictures and clarification would help.

And there's one other thing, deck delamination and compression under the mast usually mean the PO has not been taking care of maintenance, which means there will be more surprises in other places.

Me, I'd run away. But see where the estimates are, are look around online at how much fun (not) deck recoring projects can be. Done professionally, they can literally double the price of a boat. DIY, they can eat a whole lot of weekends and don't even ask about the epoxy in your hair.
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post #24 of 32 Old 11-03-2012
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Andy - any update on how things are going?

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post #25 of 32 Old 11-05-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Hi Andy...

Last week was awful weather and the Marina did not want to get up and crawl around the boat. Been in touch with the seller and we have things on hold pending more info from the marina... I am still hopeful on this boat- just waiting for the estimates. Weather is colder but looks clear this week...

Thanks for your interest & I will be sure to post the results once we're through this...

Andy
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post #26 of 32 Old 11-17-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

After receiving estimates, factoring in the various comments advice and suggestions received here and from others, and further negotiation with the seller- we've decided to proceed with our purchase of the E32.

How did we get here?

I provided a copy of the survey to the Marina along with some of the items that I thought may warrant a 2nd look, including the mast compression, deck delamination, and hull/cosmetic issues. I also asked them to provide costs for re-wiring the mast and some other fixes that are secondary to the purchase transaction (things I would like to upgrade myself).

I must say that being new to boating my experience with the marina was good- knowledgeable and helpful. However, I do not recall them informing me there would be a cost to provide the estimate- nor did they mention it when they emailed the estimate. When I received it via snail-mail it included a bill for over $200 (3 hours time on the boat). Frankly, based on the language in the estimate (short/sweet), and the fact that the survey probably provided a lot of the background needed to provide the estimate... I doubt it took 3 hours- or maybe it did- I don't know... Anyway- chalk this up to my own failure to ask/confirm if the estimate would cost anything- and first hand experience that while marinas serve a valuable purpose- they are indeed out to make money and lots of it as soon as possible... (aren't we all...).

I say this with a : Boat repair estimates are not like buying carpet, they take time, people need to crawl up ladders, they need to open ports, lockers, and hatches, they need to sniff, touch, rub, tap, they need to es-ti-mate... and if it's raining- add an hour... Buyer beware....

Regarding the estimate itself- the costs for the things that I specifically attached to the purchase (deck de-lam, and a couple other things) totaled >$5000 however some of the items were not significant to the survey results (they were cosmetic issues). After speaking with several people about the compression around the mast area I do not think it's a structural concern. I am factoring in potential removal of the mast for re-wiring, and replacing the mast compression plate in my decision here (future upgrade/fixes).

The seller has agreed to fix the deck de-lam, and some other fixes/things that I did not note in my original post. Some of these items were noted in the survey as minor- some were included in the estimates. I let the seller know my concern regarding him doing repairs versus the marina. He gave me more info on his background (specifically sailboat) in repair and I am putting my faith in him to do it right. This is a risk I am willing to manage, and we are witholding X dollars pending adequate completion of the fixes.

So key factors in our decision were:

Structural or Cosmetic? - Most of our concerns were more cosmetic in nature. Granted the deck delamination/mast may be structural but not major or near any kind of failure point. We are buying a 30 year old boat- We know there are issues going in, and may need to invest in some upgrades ourselves. Our cost entry point is comfortable for us and we feel like we're getting a boat we like at the appropriate price for it's condition/age. An early 80's Catalina or Hunter would bring with it their own types of issues. Endeavours are noted to have some gel-coat issues; which this boat has, and which we can live with- like wrinkles they add character.

Agreed fixes - We have a significant list of agreed fixes to be done by the PO. He has a racing team background and I am placing my trust in him- not always an easy call to make but I'm okay with making this one. The list incliudes the deck, rudder, port-lights, hatches, and a couple of other things (including wash/wax/bottom paint), and we have a deposit that should be enough of an incentive to do right, and/or subsidize further repair if needed.

Included equipment - Sails are newer and include 2007 or newer Genoa, Asym w/sock, new main in 2008, newer running rigging, 2 lewmar ST40's, 3 blade feathering prop, nice cradle with box... The electronics package is also pretty solid with ST60, autohelm and SL70 GPS/Radar (no radar dome).

Long story short - We like the boat, we know it has wrinkles. We've vetted the survey against folks more knowledgable than us, got some estimates for repairs, re-negotiated with the seller to incporporate some repairs- and are moving forward with the purchase... We haven't closed yet- hopefully there won't be any surprises on that end...

In the meantime I'll be getting comfortable with Nigel Calder, beefing up my book-smarts, learning some new knots, shopping for slips, and saving my pennies for that hole in the water I'm gleefully diving in...

Can't wait til spring!
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post #27 of 32 Old 11-17-2012
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Congrats on the new boat.

As you mention you're new to this, I should add that there can be many ways to affect a boat repair. For example, some will try to repair a delam by cutting or drilling small holes and trying to inject with epoxy. The proper way is to cut the section out and re-lay the core, glass and gelcoat. The difference in cost is about 100 fold.

While I understand the marinas point about the time it takes them to do an estimate, I would never pay for one unless they disclosed it first. If they want the work they estimated, you should ask them to remove that. Indeed, they may have been protecting themselves that you would just go elsewhere to get it done and would be happy to remove it.


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post #28 of 32 Old 11-17-2012
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Awahl : You may be new to this but your approach and realsitic expectations on an older vessel are a bonus compared to most buyers new or not. Congratulations. I'd bet you are going to make out just fine.

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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

Andy, it sounds like you guys have got a working relationship. As long as the seller is going to do proper repairs (not kludges) on the big things, like the deck compression, then you should be OK.

The surprise bill from the marina means they are sharks. Any reputable business will make it very clear up front when they are going to charge you an estimate fee, and in many states the law REQUIRES contractors, mechanics, tv repair shops, etc. all to post it in writing and get your written consent before they can charge you for that. o protect the public from sharks. Three hours...well, call it an expensive reality check vs. the survey and a shark alert.
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Re: Post Survey Cost Estimates

I would agree that wherever I've been surprised once, the experience continues.


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