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  #11  
Old 10-31-2012
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowButSteady View Post
Whoever told you that didn't know much about sailing.

Learning to sail is in large part learning to integrate ALL the cues available. If you can master sailing a flippy little dinghy you'll be in a far better position to sail a ballasted boat, particularly when you get caught in nasty weather (and you WILL get caught in nasty weather, sooner or later). But, it's your life. Just do us all a favor and don't get a boat-load of friends and/or kids hurt or killed when you find out how valuable it would have been to have developed your sailing skills on a smaller boat.
I don't doubt dinghy sailing experience would be advantageous, I just don't think it would be the only way to learn. I would think it would be more dangerous to take out a "flippy little boat" on the SF Bay, especially in bad weather, than a sturdy keel boat. Maybe it would've been different on a lake.

Not sure why this point of view irritated you, but if it makes you feel better, I did state that I plan to single-hand most of the time. I also intend to take plenty of lessons and stay in protected waters until I'm confident in my sailing abilities, as well as take every safety precaution possible. If that seems reckless to you, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Like I said, it's your life.

BTW, I learned how to sail on SF Bay, Berkeley Aquatic Park, and Lake Merced, in a dinghy.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Maybe I sound a little harsh. But I'm getting tired of hearing about novice sailors (often with an ASA class or two to "brag" about) who get themselves in way over their heads and make dumb (sometimes fatal) decisions because they never learned to control a boat in marginal conditions. Sailing a dinghy gives you some of that experience, because dinghies are far more often "on the edge".

But, I say this all the time, and people ignore me and learn the hard way. So be it.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Sometimes I think I'd feel safer in a small dinghy. At least it won`t go anywhere if I fall overboard.

For pure sailing, a smaller boat is so much nicer... sigh. There is nothing like the sensation of being part of the boat, one arm feeling the wind through the sheet and the another one feeling the flow of the water on the tiller.

Dinghy sailing skills are completely transferable in the sense that you will know when you are doing something stupid even if your large boat does not immediately sends the feedback. Now, knowing how to right a boat should hopefully be less useful.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Although I have always liked the Cal, a re-power alone may end up costing more than a whole boat with a working motor. The cost to the prior owner to re-power my boat was twice the asking price of the boat you are looking at. My boat is about the same size and age and came originally with a A4 or Ferrymann diesel. For comparison here is one in my area that has been on the marked for a while, with a working diesel,
Cal 2-27 Sailboat,
If you go with the outboard you will come out ahead for a time, but if the long term plan is to work out some type of inboard power you might be in for a pretty big total investment compared to a ready to go boat. That may not be a bad thing if you have the $, love the boat, and have the time and skill to get it done.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Funny you should mention it, I just completed ASA101 course I wouldn't "brag" about it though, it's more an indication of how "green" I really am, not the other way around.

I didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the advice, and I do understand your point. It's just that I don't think it's the only way to learn, although I fully accept that it may be the best one.

Although I'm very new to sailing, I've been a car driver for 20 years, so I'll try to compare to that. I drove different kinds of cars, from 300hp tuned sports cars to delivery trucks, different conditions, from highway cruising, to mad Paris driving, to club time trials on the track. That still doesn't qualify me as an expert, but I do believe I have enough experience to appreciate the insight driving a small sports car gives you, that feeling of being connected to the road, getting feedback that helps you understand the consequences of your actions. Ideally, everyone should learn to drive by getting into a go-cart, as that gives you the most feedback. Unfortunately, it's very seldom the case and you can become a very good driver even if you drive an SUV, all you need is a desire to learn and proper instruction. Safety is, of course, an issue and should be taken very seriously, especially when there're passengers or other people on the road are involved. Practicing trail breaking on a freeway in the middle of rush hour is hardly a sane thing to do, but doing the same thing on a track with an instructor in the passenger seat would be very useful.

Now, does all this relate to sailing as well, or am I way off? If I am, I would be grateful for any insight. In my, admittedly uneducated, opinion starting to sail on a 27' moderate displacement boat would be like staring to drive in a Camry. Probably not the best choice, but far from the worst. Am I wrong to draw that parallel?

All that said, I do appreciate all the feedback, I really do. I just reserve the right to respectfully defend my own views on the subject, however naive and baseless they may be.

Cheers,
Alex.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Quote:
Originally Posted by baboon View Post
Although I have always liked the Cal, a re-power alone may end up costing more than a whole boat with a working motor. The cost to the prior owner to re-power my boat was twice the asking price of the boat you are looking at. My boat is about the same size and age and came originally with a A4 or Ferrymann diesel. For comparison here is one in my area that has been on the marked for a while, with a working diesel,
[link removed] Cal 2-27 Sailboat,
If you go with the outboard you will come out ahead for a time, but if the long term plan is to work out some type of inboard power you might be in for a pretty big total investment compared to a ready to go boat. That may not be a bad thing if you have the $, love the boat, and have the time and skill to get it done.
I actually looked at that boat a while ago, but I figured it would be too much hassle to get it transported to SF. Now that I've looked into parts availability for Farymanns, I'm not so sure it's such a good deal.

I realize it'll cost a sizable chunk of money to convert to electric, but I figured it'll be a fun project and would cost a lot less if I do some of the non-specialized work myself and use components or kits, rather than turn-key systems. I'm estimating around $5K to do the conversion over the next year or two, which would still be about half the cost of a diesel repower. Add to that a pair of good ST winches, and the dollars start to make a lot more sense. The outboard would be just the means to still be sailing in good weather while I'm doing all that.

Cheers,
Alex.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotyara View Post
Funny you should mention it, I just completed ASA101 course I wouldn't "brag" about it though, it's more an indication of how "green" I really am, not the other way around.

I didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the advice, and I do understand your point. It's just that I don't think it's the only way to learn, although I fully accept that it may be the best one.

Although I'm very new to sailing, I've been a car driver for 20 years, so I'll try to compare to that. I drove different kinds of cars, from 300hp tuned sports cars to delivery trucks, different conditions, from highway cruising, to mad Paris driving, to club time trials on the track. That still doesn't qualify me as an expert, but I do believe I have enough experience to appreciate the insight driving a small sports car gives you, that feeling of being connected to the road, getting feedback that helps you understand the consequences of your actions. Ideally, everyone should learn to drive by getting into a go-cart, as that gives you the most feedback. Unfortunately, it's very seldom the case and you can become a very good driver even if you drive an SUV, all you need is a desire to learn and proper instruction. Safety is, of course, an issue and should be taken very seriously, especially when there're passengers or other people on the road are involved. Practicing trail breaking on a freeway in the middle of rush hour is hardly a sane thing to do, but doing the same thing on a track with an instructor in the passenger seat would be very useful.

Now, does all this relate to sailing as well, or am I way off? If I am, I would be grateful for any insight. In my, admittedly uneducated, opinion starting to sail on a 27' moderate displacement boat would be like staring to drive in a Camry. Probably not the best choice, but far from the worst. Am I wrong to draw that parallel?

All that said, I do appreciate all the feedback, I really do. I just reserve the right to respectfully defend my own views on the subject, however naive and baseless they may be.

Cheers,
Alex.
I think your analysis is a reasonable one. I started sailing high performance dingys, and still do. I also windsurf and sail my 30 ft keel boat. I really do think the learning curve is much faster in a dingy, but that does not mean you should go buy one. As long as you are conservative with your first sails, and perhaps take someone with you with more exerience, you should be fine. Your choice for a first sailboat is good, solid and safe if in good repair. I am surprised when inexperienced sailors buy a big new boat, it must be pretty depressing the first time you bounce it off the dock.

Having said that, a few hours in a dingy will teach you sail control and other skills that can take days to master on a bigger boat. Try to get out on a Laser or similar aboat at at local club. You will be glad you did.
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

I can't give you direct feedback on that particular Pearson, but have sailed in smaller and larger models. What I can tell you is the Pearson has a very good reputation for solid, well-build, well-designed boats. They used quality materials throughout. Personally - I am biased :-) - I would have thought the Pearson is likely to be the best built of the three.

As always, it comes down to condition and price. All three are quality boats, but if you intend to sail in The Slot (I think you mentioned SF), then I would err on the side of a strong, well-built, seakindly boat. it can get rough and windy out there.

BTW, don't worry about changing the name. Just follow an "official" de-naming ceremony, and don't stint on the champagne. An awful name is worse luck than a rename.....
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re: First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?

Quote:
Originally Posted by baboon View Post
I think your analysis is a reasonable one. I started sailing high performance dingys, and still do. I also windsurf and sail my 30 ft keel boat. I really do think the learning curve is much faster in a dingy, but that does not mean you should go buy one. As long as you are conservative with your first sails, and perhaps take someone with you with more exerience, you should be fine. Your choice for a first sailboat is good, solid and safe if in good repair. I am surprised when inexperienced sailors buy a big new boat, it must be pretty depressing the first time you bounce it off the dock.
Thank you for the reassurance, it is good to know I'm not totally off my rocker As for bigger boats, I was really tempted at first. Dreamed about crossing oceans and all that. But then, I've made that mistake before, when I tried to get into motorcycles. Bought a brand new 130hp sport bike... it's been sitting in the garage for the past 4 years with only 2000 miles on the clock. I remembered that when I was lusting over that beautiful Cal 3-30 or an Olson 30 add in Latitude. Bottom line, I still have a 5 year old daughter and a beautiful wife to home to, so I doubt I'll be taking stupid risks.

Quote:
Having said that, a few hours in a dingy will teach you sail control and other skills that can take days to master on a bigger boat. Try to get out on a Laser or similar aboat at at local club. You will be glad you did.
Now that is a very good idea. I don't think I'll want to start that way, but will definitely give it a try if only to gain an appreciation for that type of sailing.

Cheers,
Alex.
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