Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats
BS Yachts Marketing Program
Okay - the moment you've been waiting for. If one wants to discuss the con(s) of steel sailboats, one need look no further than this post.
What follows is the BS Yachts Marketing Program. It is the pitch from the Head of BS Yachts' Sales Department: BS himself.
Feel free to substantiate, defend, dissect, question, mock, or chortle at any of the following claims about BrentBoats by Brent himself. This is the condensed version of Swaintology.
If you are his target market...that is someone who doesn't know a whole lot about boats or steelwork, doesn't have a huge budget (i.e. - more than $50K cash), and just wants to go cruising - this is for you. Feel free to click the blue arrows -
- by Brent's name to see his post in context and see the responses to it.
The bottom line is this...you, the "99%-er cruising wannabe" (Brent's words), have three choices:
1. Build your BrentBoat THEN go cruising with what you have left.
2. Buy a relatively expensive (compared to similar fiberglass boats) used BrentBoat that someone is trying to unload and go cruising immediately.
3. Buy a well-equipped, cruise-ready fiberglass boat for far less and go cruising immediately with more money in your pocket (but, according to Brent, living with the daily panic of being struck down by aggressive Fukushima Debris, logs, reefs or rocks - or the annoyance of having to pay attention to where you're going)
Brent often conflates the idea of "design" with the idea of "building" (hence, the numbers vs. experience angle) - so watch out for that. BUT, if you DO want to build your own BrentBoat, here's what you can expect (from Brent's own customers):
1. You'll likely spend a good deal more than $35K for a fully equipped BrentBoat. This is after you've already spent several hundred more for his plans, books and DVDs. (Oh and that's just for the boat - you'll need to factor in the costs of the build area, the expensive tools you'll need, the electronics you'll want to add, the utilities, etc.). So, let's up that figure to somewhere a good bit beyond $50K (the cruising budget we mentioned above).
2. You'll likely spend 3 years or more building this boat...before you can ever sail a single mile.
3. When Brent talks about how "perfect" his boat is after 30 years (i.e. - low maintenance requirements, dirt cheap equipment, etc.)...here's what he means by "perfect":
Notice the chipped paint, the rust, etc. And keep this in mind when you read through his maintenance claims below.
Now, an important sidenote as you review the BS Marketing Claims - this "Bob" character with whom Brent goes 'round is the rather legendary yacht designer, Robert Perry. Word is he's been kind of successful over the years and is somewhat respected by most sane people. Here's a hardcover book that outlines his 30+ year career:
A great designer offers you a virtuoso tour through the world of sailboats
Bob Perry initiated the trend toward fast voyaging sailboats with his world-famous Valiant 40, which has been in production longer than any other cruising sailboat in history. But Perry is not only a leading yacht designer--he is also an accomplished wordsmith whose blunt, insightful, irreverent, and always entertaining boat reviews have captivated readers of Sailing magazine for 24 years. This book is vintage Perry, a no-holds-barred tour of the world of yacht design through the benchmark boats of his 30-year career.
So, without further adieu...I give you The BS Yachts Marketing Programme, designed to convince you, good 99%er-Cruiser-Wannabe, to buy or build a BrentBoat. Make up your own mind about integrity, veracity, and credibility. Where will you put your money?
Wide shallow sterned boats with super lean bows are very badly balanced hulls, hard to control downwind in a rough sea. They have no directional stability.
What about Vendee and VOR boats that have done a pretty good job of doing just this around the entire earth?
Catalina 27 is a very poor choice, a grossly unbalanced rudder which you can't leave for a second without her broaching off course. Very poorly built. There are far better choices, for cheap.
I had one of these C27s. We always had too much sail up - and she did indeed give us a heavy tiller. But that was when we had too much sail up.
Saw one with 50 fragile plastic thru hulls, mostly below the waterline, which could be easily broken with a slight kick, or a shifting of gear. A very fragile, minimumly built, "style over substance", type of boat.
If I recall he's talking about a large Beneteau here. Slight kick or shifting gear? Seems there would be a lot more sinkings than we've heard of if this were case.
Things simply dont break in a small steel boat, and they dont leak.
This indeed is a miracle for any boat anywhere in the world. Impressive.
Amazing how long it took the 'Experts" , with all their qualifications and decades of experience, to figure out what I did, with almost zero sailing experience. That shows the power of dogma.
The Malo has negative stability either side of 180 dergees . Roll either side of 180 and you are in negative stability country. Many of the traditional boats Bob mentioned have positive stability to over 170 degees.
165 to 183 degrees sounds about par for those older , deep, narrow boats.
You really should click the blue arrow by his name above and follow this argument he's having with Bob. It's quite entertaining. In a sailboat, if you roll past 180 degrees aren't you coming back up?
As any accountant will tell you, start doing the math, and get one factor wrong, and everything from that point on is wrong.
In light of all the numbers vs. experience arguments, and the above roll ratios, this is one of my all time favorites.
Many years ago you told a friend of mine that asymetrical waterlines give better directional stability. The boat you designed for him ,based on that assumption, had none. He was very disappointed with it. He went back to building Spencers, which he had much experience with, boats with much finer sterns, and resulting good directional stability.
I think the real "Comedian" is the super dense and gullible guy who tells you that commercially made "style over substance" type blocks at $30 each are your only option, or that such flimsy contraptions are actually stronger than 3/16th aluminium ones with solid sheaves, and 3/8th inch solid stainless pins. Or maybe he is the guy tryying to sell commercially made $30 flimsy blocks and can't compete with practicality, so doesnt want anyone to know of affordable alternatives.
My hand craked sewing machine has paid for itself many times over, one of the handiest machines one can have aboard. It lets you reinforce things well before they tear, adding many years to a sail. I wouldn't be without it.
Pay attention to these gear numbers and claims as it plays out below.
1/8th inch plate would work for a boat that size, as would 1/4 inch pins. For a boat that size, 12 guage or even 14 guage would work.The difference between that and the weight of the coins in your pocket would be negligible. You could save far more weight by skipping breakfast and sailing bare assed.
Yes, there is a reason people use fancy pulleys. Promotion, advertising , glossy brochures, and hype.
A rich freind sailed from BC to New Zealand and back. He had expensive, comercially made blocks, with aluminium cheeks, with stainless straps over them . The corrosion betwen the two froze the expensive , "comercially made "blocks up solid in less than a year . All aluminium blocks ( the $2 kind ) are open, and any corrosion falls out.
Without the stainless straps to react with, there is little corrosion. Mine are 29 years old, and after 6 Pacific Crossings, and 11 months a year cruising, are as good and functional as the day I made them( for under $2 each).
In racing circles "Overbuilt" means something which doesnt break regularly, reducing profits for those who make and promote them.
As you can see in this thread, I've offered to pay Brent $11+shipping for one of his $2 blocks so I can test it against a Garhauer (the test being exactly like he lays out below). He hasn't come through. But i'll keep trying.
My 1/4 inch galv wire halyard, which I put on in Tonga in 2003 is due for replacement after ten years of mostly full time cruising. I dont think I would have got that out of any other material
Beginers need oto be cautious about not being conned ninto buying a lot of useless stuff they dont need, and may better of without. Keep it simple. go sailing simply , then slowy decide, based on your ever increasing experince, what you really need.
I totally agree with this statement - which is why I don't think steel boats are the way to go for someone who wants to "go sailing simply". Just my opinion.
Oops my screwup. Didnt read the second number carefully.
A 12 meter hull has positive stability to within a couple of degrees of 180, if you put a proper deck and cockpit on her.
Brent acknowledging his skewed math on the 183 debate after Bob kindly points out the flaws.
This hatch can be made out of scrap aluminium for under $25 and is a far better hatch than commercialy made ones costing hundreds of dollars
When numbers defy logic , it is probably the numbers which are wrong.
Beneteuas and Catalinas are flimsy crap. Older designs are far better put together, and more seaworthy.
This was his post in a thread by someone who was proudly showing off their recently purchased Beneteau. Classy.
They weigh about the same as framed boats but the true saving is in time and thus money, faireness greatly enhanced , zero filler needed. I find that if it looks dainty fragile and flimsy, it probably is. I refuse to design a boat dainty fragile and flimsy, the stakes are too high on ocean cruisers. Full time cruisers get the same rough treatment as workboats , and should thus be built more to workboat, funtional priorities. Experienced ocean cruisers are a lot more impressed by workboat priorities, than the dainty, flimsy, fragile "Yacht" look.
A friend had Bob design him the Reliance 37 based on his asymetric waterlines. He was very disappointed by the total lack of directional stability, and went back to the more balanced Spencer designs.
A freind racing on a Beneteau said he couldn't leave the helm for a second withour the boat broaching, even in moderate conditions. Mine gives me enough time to go to the rail and take a leak, then walk back ,before it wanders noticably off course.
Bob's familiar with this boat and knows the owner who attended his world-renown Rendezvous. The guy seemed to like his boat. Brent can offer no evidence to the contrary, other than his word.
Now, when I get a new mainsail, the first thing I do is remove the roach and battens, which are responsible for over 80% of sail repairs, which is why sailmakers come up with so many flimsy excuses for roaches and battens. It is a source of much income in the repair buisiness for them. Battens drastrically reduce the life expectancy of a cruising sail, and a good cruising boat should be designed to balance well without a roach on the main. Roaches and battens are a racing gimmick which should be left on racing boats. They have no place on a good offshore cruising boat.
Many of the BrentBoats you'll see in photographs have battens. Do his own customers listen to him?
My only costs, other than fuel, is a gallon of paint every couple of years.
Put this in your maintenance spreadsheet - then look at the other maintenance claims below, coupled with the photos of what to expect with this level of maintenance.
I dont demand anything, I just warn people of the pitfalls of following trendiness over logic, warnings I wish someone had given me in my youth. Beneteau's production is a testimony to the effect of mass advertising to the gullible masses, and to the gullibility of those masses, not to quality.
Nobody wants to be a gullible mass. But seriously?
A friend with one of my 36 footers raced on a Beneteau. He said going forward on the decks was like runing an obstackle course, it was small and cluttered. He said if you left the helm for a second, it would instanly go off course. My 36 tracks like she is on rails.
I've been on lots of Beneteaus. His friend is wrong.
Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.
Bob has no record of this boat. Brent can provide no evidence. See a trend?
I saw a Beneteau hauled out, with 38 flimsy plastic thru hulls, which you could easily break out with a light kick, leaving an inch and a half hole in the boat, mostly below the waterline.
Same as the above claim, but now with 12 fewer thru-hulls.
My boats dont rust out, as long as they follow the directions I give them. If they dont, then that is not my fault.
Most don't tie to docks, one is enroute from Cape horn to the Aleutians, several are finishing circumnavigations and several are leisurely cruising Mexico and the South Pacific, while others are cruising full time in BC waters, unlike the expensive plastic boats ,which leave their owners so broke that they have to tie the boat to a dock and spend years earning the money to pay for them. Do they sail faster? Not if you include the time peope spend working to pay for them, then pay the moorage, insurance, repairs, sails maintenance etc. while the guy in the more affordable Brentboat is out cruising and making miles. The guy in the so called "fast boat" will never sail enough miles to make up for the time he has wasted at the dock..
Most of the BrentBoats I've come across are for sale.
One 36, cruising in company with a 35 ft Beneteau, leaving port at the same time, was always arriving at his destination way ahead of the Benny, despite being heavily loaded.
This is a very important point. And this is why it's so critical to understand where every penny of your cruising budget will go if you get into a BrentBoat. Yet, this is virtually impossible as there are no real numbers out there - and he won't provide any.
I'm not saying mine is the right design for someone who wants to throw away a lot of money for an inferior product. In fact is is definitely the wrong boat for someone who wants to do that.
The aluminim 28 footer was a boat called Carmela which I was told was a Perry design.It is somewhere in Victoria, I dont know exactly were.
When one of my 36 footers, the first one I built, pounded for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf,with no significant dammage, I know it is stronger than a fibreglass boat ,which would have broken up in the first few hours. When she T-boned a CBC barge in front of gramas pub in Gibsons at hull speed, with zero damage, I know she is strong.
When one did a single season passage thru the NW passage, with zero damage, I know it is strong. When one pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf ,then was puled back across the same reef with zero damage, then later collided with a freighter in Gibralter with no significant damage, I know it is strong. Try those tricks in a Benny. See how significant your numbers jugling is.
I only help the owner get the shell and steel work done. The kind of finish they do from that point on is up to them Those who have gone yachty have always regreted such a waste of time and money, which should have been spent on cruising, and things that matter.
So I suppose what he's saying here is that he'll help you through the easy stuff for the first few days - then you're on your own when it gets hard?
The paint job on mmy current boat is 29 years old and the only maintenance I've done on it is touch up the chipoed parts, the rest is as good as the day I put it on. I do an houror two a year maintenace on my paint job. Any time tyo se rusting in th e middle iof aflat surface the paint was n ever thich k enouhg or th esateel not clean enough. I initially put 30 gallons of epoxy on my boat. The thicker the better. Too thin a paint job is the main cause of maintenace problems on steel boats, a problem which is easily avoided. To thin a paint job is often motivated by seeking the yachty look. Thick paint works better ,but usually does look rougher. Thats a matter of priorities.
See photos above.
There is no way you can get a spade rudder as strong without a skeg, as you can with one. A rudder behind a skeg has a much higher stall angle. Even a partial skeg with a balanced bottom is much stronger. Puts the bending load on the rudder blade, rather than on a shaft with very highly loaded bearings.
Disregard all modern rudder design and engineering.
My boats sometimes go aground because they are not used as marina queens, and do a lot of cruising, sometimes in uncharted waters. Yes, some of their skippers are piss poor navigators. I dont choose my clients on that basis , neither do you.The first owner of a 36 was my demolition test pilot. Any other boat wouldn't have survived as long in his hands. Nothing proves a boat strength like a piss poor navigator- demolition test pilot. How they sail is out of my hands.
At the same time, he says safe navigation is not all that important below. So which is it?
People choose my designs for the freedom from worry about hitting anything, over going marginally faster, at the price of constant worry about hitting anything. With my first boat, I had to worry about such things .When I switched to steel, and drasticaly reduced such worries my enjoyment of cruising went up drastically, far more than any enjoyment which going marginally faster would have given me.
That is why my boats cruise so much, and dont cling to marinas, waiting for fair weather sailer days, or seasons.
In 38 years with steel rudders, I havent had a rust problem. As long as your zinc is on and in good contact, it has to go first, before the rudder can start corroding. Outboard rudders can be easily removed, hung in a tree and painted , with no need or an expensive haulout.
Readers should know they have an alternative to super expensive boats , which you have to constantly worry about hitting anything with, deck leaks and gear pulling out of the decks, and have the option of a marginally slower boat, which is extremely worry free, on which nothing breaks . The choice is theirs. My clients choose the latter.
I guess you need to decide what's more important to you...cruising or body armor.
I live on the BC coast, cruising year round, while those with more fragile, trendy, and expensive boats go to work to pay the moorage, and loans needed to own and maintain them. I consider their lives "living in a cave" far more than mine.They are far more likely to be your clients than mine. I love to wake up in a secluded anchorage, turn on the traffic report, and listen to what they are doung to pay for that fragile plastic boat they bought to impress us with . I cut a fart in their honour and go back to sleep for an extra hour or two, thoroughly "impressed."
Thanks for the fart, Brent.
I have black poly pipe on my shrouds which has been in the sun for 37 years and is as good as the day I put it on.
See photos above to see what "good as the day I put it in" can mean.
You dont want any kind of battens on a cruising sail. Your jib doesnt need one , neither does your main.
Having an outboard rudder has enabled me to build my self steering, far more effective than most horendously expensive models; mandatory on boat with inboard rudders, and my inside steering, for around $25.
This is a very, very good price for windvane steering. The question is, can YOU do it?
Owning a sailboat has been the most sound financial decision I have made in my entire life.
Expenses of owning my boat?
Moorage, zero. I stay anchored
Heating bills, zero. Woodstove eats for free.
Maintenance, less than $100 a year.
Diesel , under $200 a year.
We're now at $300/year for total cost of ownership. How does that match up with the other claims?
Many clients have eliminated a heavy weather helm by eliminating the roach. Kinda completely blows your theory. Theory and reality can be a long way apart.
I place a high value on aesthetics, as do you, and many people tell me my boats are beautiful, as are yours.
This is to that guy Bob. The one in the book.
Such yachty absurdities such as a teak deck , flimsy teak hatches and skylights, and flimsy yachtie hardware, look pretty ugly after a bitt of rough use. I have seen such " decorative priority" boats leaving BC , looking immaculate, but by the time they get to New Zealand they look rough as hell, while the more practical, easier to maintain boats with workboat priorities can do the same trip, and still look immaculate at the end of the voyage. Your boats often contain such yachtie absurdities, mine, rarely .I dont recommend them, you dont discourage them.
See photos for the meaning of "immaculate".
Two doctors I worked for said my $2 sheet blocks are something of which a multi millionaire couldn't buy a better one. My $100 roller furling is far more reliable than commercially made ones costing thousands of dollars, as is my windvane , anchor winch hatches , etc etc. The thinking and expereince which go into a boat do far more to determine how good a boat is, than the amount of money one throws at a boat.
I'm still waiting on the block.
They have zero weather helm with a roachless main, the way I designed her.
One sailed from Cortes Island downwind to Comox, with no one at the helm, and no self steering of any kind. Many people, who have only sailed poorly balanced stock boats, were blown away by the directional stability of my boats.
If they change the sail plan from what I designed, that is their doing , not mine. If all else fails, follow the insructions.
Do you really want a boat with "zero weather helm"? Follow this post for Bob's questions about this.
Replaced my jib sheets a couple of years ago after 27 yers and 6 Pacific crossings and the rest cruising 11 months a year in BC . Last painted my bottom in Tonga 10 years ago, having a 5,000 mile sail ahead of me back to BC, mostly to windward. That was also my last haulout. It takes me 15 minutes to scrap the bottom of my twin keeler when aground on most low tides. No need for new bottom paint. I use the free zincs others throw away, so new you can still read the writing on them. Just picked up three more today.
Topside paint ,home hardware "Fishboat" paint costs $28 a gallon. I repaint it every couple of years. I was given 5 gallons of epoxy, but it only costs around $40 a gallon, and a gallon lasts many years doing touchups.
Welding rods are for new projects, mostly for other people , not maintenance ,except for one or two rods a year for welding zincs on.
On a well built steel boat, nothing breaks ,leaks or pulls away.
27 years for sheets. Conflicts with his halyard claims. And again, nothing breaks on his boat...a miracle in the boating world.
Aesthetically pleasing is different for those who buy whatever consumerism is trying to sell them , from those who do their own thinking. I get much satisfaction in helping low income cruisers get cruising in boats they could never afford otherwise, better boats than the rich are sailing around in, boats which drastically reduce the risk to them and their children from colliding with Fukashima debris in the night.
He gets his satisfaction out of helping the low income cruiser. Yet he won't tell you what it will really cost for you to get cruising in one of his boats - even a hypothetical worst-case high-end that you could find ways to back off of? Why?
My furler is covered by the sail so whats to see. They have fewer moving parts than a set of sail hanks. They dont fail either. My hatch design is far easier to get in any out of than the complex abortion which is the sliding hatch, and it is as waterproof as the lid on a pressure cooker.
You are right when you say that there is no way you could build any kind of boat for what they are charging for older fibreglass boats. I hear the Greeks are giving them away to avoid the taxes. However, I have several friends who bought fibreglass boats, who are upgrading to my boats, to boats which are built right from the outset, when they find that nothing on the market is what they want. They prefer boats which let them hit the odd rock, log or shipping container in the night, without a care in the world. One T-boned a rock in the Straits of Magellan . Shrug and carry on, no problem. You can read the story by doing a search under Silas Crosby. Many of my clients have thoroughly searched the used boat market, and concluded that the only way to get exactly what you want is to build it yourself..
At least we start to get some vague idea of cost. Fiberglass boats are undoubtedly the cheapest, fastest way to get out there and cruise. If, however, you ARE one who likes to hit the odd rock, log or shipping container at night - you really should try to get some accurate time and cost estimates to see what you're getting into.
That is because they are the only boats which can take a head on, full throttle impact with ice, with zero dammage. Winston Bushnell did that in Dove 111 with no damage whatever. You can read about it in Geoge Hone's book "The NW Passage on ten dollars a day" or Len Shermans book "Arctic Oddysy', both available from Harbour Chandlery in Nanaimo BC.
In November 85 I was frozen in on Mansons Lagoon on Cortes Island in 5 inches of ice . I broke out by ramming it at full throttle for three days. The only damage was chipped paint on the stem and on the leading edges of the keels. Try that with a non metal boat.
In winter, I find the easiest way to clean my hull is to motor thru a quarter mile of ice.
In winter ,there is nothing warmer and drier than a metal hull with a good 1 1/2 inches of sprayfoam over everything.
It sounds like these boats are only meant for cold water sailing. I like flip-flops, but you might prefer ugs.
Actually, except for the odd paint chip, the steel and paint job are as good as it was 29 years ago, inside and out, with an hour a year maintenance.
The steel for the basic shell of my 36 is around
$9k. Try buy the resin and fibreglass materials to build a hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit , keel, rudder, and skeg for a 36 ft fibreglas shell for that much! The left over scraps, around 4%, make up your anchors, woodstove etc. Your cleats, instead of costing $40 each from a ship swindlers cost $1.80 a pound from the scrapyard, and once welded down with a dollars worth of rod, will never work loose or leak. Ditto your self steering, anchor winch, fittings, etc etc
Make sure your build site is near a scrapyard with boat stuff.
When I was able to get a 36 ft shell together for around $8K, the cheapest commercial builders were doing it for was $25,000. Colvin estimated 1,000 hours to put a hull and decks together, using his outdated methods, something I do in 100 hours. One has to question the math skills of anyone claiming that 100 hours is the same, and costs the same as 1,000 hours!
Starting to get some general idea of cost. But very little.
How many fibreglass boats in the same weigh range as mine have survived 16 days pounding on a Baja leeshore in up to 12 ft surf? Mine has. How many have survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and been dragged back across it with no damage? Mine has. If your calculations say otherwise ,then your calculations are obviously wrong, and clearly missing a factor..
The logic in owning a steel boat is in not having to worry about hitting Fukashima debris in the night and losing your life and that of your crew and kids in the night . Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died . Discouraging people from the wisdom of choosing the greatly enhanced safety of a steel hull for offshore cruising, is life threateningly irresponsible.
The boat on the Fijian reef that he is claiming as "Mine" is Nothin' Wong - yet he reverses himself below and says it's NOT his when talking about Clive, the owner. Maybe part of this is the design vs. construction argument (if he helps build it it's "his" - when it's convenient - even if he didn't design it). But you wouldn't know it unless you were paying close attention to what he says.
The Sleavin family remark is completely outrageous on every level. Here are photos of the freighter than ran down the Sleavin's boat:
Brent, if you actually believe that "Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died.", you should be willing to put this claim to the test in your own boat...with you aboard...with a freighter this size running you down at cruising speed. We'll wait for the video and report.
More on the Sleavins.
Tragedy Ends Family's Sailing Adventure : Accident: Their yacht is hit off New Zealand. The Santa Clarita woman is saved but husband, children are lost at sea. - Los Angeles Times
I built ULLR in Comox BC in the early 80s. The owners worked part time on her, evenings and weekends. The steel cost $3800 back then and scrap stainless was $1 a pound. I have no records of what else they spent on her .
One is the wine coloured 36 in the photos you posted, built for $35,000, 5 years ago, Winston Bushnells boat, beautifully finished inside and out.
Though these figures weren't quite accurate - it does at least give us a number to work off of.
Many, including myself, pay far less attention to the odd rock ,than we would in a fragile plastic or wooden boat, which couldn't survive a collision with a rock, without serious hull dammage. We dont sail in rockpiles and uncharted waters, in stark fear. If we hit a rock we shrug and carry on, no wories.. Some have hit rocks at three knots some at 6 or more and everything in between, with no real damage except a tiny paint chip.
This is the BS version of seamanship. It's a rare discipline.
Roughly 200 of my boats have been built without frames. None has ever failed at sea. They have survived everything from 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft seas on the west coast of Baja and being pulled off thru such surf ,lifted and dropped 12 feet onto hard sand every wave for 1/4 mile with no damage, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf and pulled off thru it in big surf, again with no visible dammage except the paint job gone, a single season passage thru the NW passage, again with zero damage.
200 might have been started but there seem that there are very, very few of them out there actually cruising.
I was just given another SSB- Ham radio for free, my second freebe ham radio . I sailed many years without radar, never had a fab all, my wood stove cost me $50 for stainless .I have never had a chartplotter, th efirst diesel for my current boat cost me $1,000. I have never suggested that anyone can buy one of my boats cheap and get al the work and resourcefuillness the owner put in for free. One can build and equip their own brentboat for a fraction the cost of having one built. Do you work for free? No? Then dont expect others to.
This is important when you're figuring costs. If you want to be below that $50K-plus total, you'll need to hit the dumpsters, scrap yards, and surplus shops, and try to score lots of free stuff. This, of course, will affect the time side of your plan (adding a few additional years before you can sail), but you WILL save money. You'll just be really old when you finish.
When you ask for a price breakdown on building my boats, you are asuming that my clients are incredibly stupid enough to buy everything new, at retail prices. They are definitely not that stupid. Most are far more practical and resourceful that that ,unlike those who foolishly assume that they are as dense as the average urban consumer, an extreme insult to their intelligence and resourcefulness. A friend was given an old boat, rotten, with a good mast, rig sails, winches , anchors anchor rodes, runing rigging ,etc etc. a freebe. How many more price zeros can a resouceful home builder put on your proposed list? There is no predicting what kind of deals a resourcful home builder will come up with, so such a list is only valid for the super dense, urban consumerism disciple. Those kind of halfwits are not amoung my clients.
I guess he's telling you, interested customer, that budgets don't matter? You'll be fine as long as you're not stupid enough to pay retail? What do you think? And before you answer, remember he doesn't want you to be a gullible mass and just believe what the yacht designers and builders of today simply tell you.
When I started my current 31 in 84 , I had $4,000 to my name ,total. When I launched her 30 day later ,I had $40. People at Newcastle marina at the time including Gerald, Evan and Winston can afirm the build to launching time. From there to sailing and living aboard, minus my cost of living, was $2,000 left for the boat.Mainsail Sig Jantzen sold me for $100 the awning I made my jib out of cost me $80 , interior panneling freebe, dito the 3/4 and 3/8th plywood.
You need to decide if you can do this on your boat.
These are actual experiences, not abstract calculations, which have far less relevance, unless you are ready to tell NASA that they are wasting their time on testing gear to destruction, as you can give them far more accurate calculations than reality, on your computer. Perhaps you can save Ralph Nader a lot of product testing expenses, by telling him that he need only read the price tag on any item to find how good it is, or simply double the price on anything, to double the quality automatically.
I'm still waiting for one of his blocks so I can go all NASA on it.
I dont need calculations to know that a 4 inch sch 40 stailnless pipe welded in to the deck, and a plate ten inches below it ,welded to the hull is stronger than a bolted down pot metal cleat.I dont need any calculations to know that a half inch stainless rod chock, fully welded into the steel bulwark is stronger than a bolted down "yachtie" chock on a teak rail. I donty need calculations to know that a 34 inch high, solid stainless sch 40 pipe rail is safer than knee high ""yachtie" plastic coated rails, the stanchions made out of something slightly thicker than stainless tinfoil. I don't need calculations to realise that an on epiece aluminium hatch is more waterproof, easier to use, and and tougher than a decorative teak sliding hatch and dropboards, a hairbrained arrangement. I dont need calculations to know that hands on building and cruising experience over 40 years produces a far better and more practical boat than calculatuions made by the best comnpruter whiz with minimal if any low budget ocean cruising expereince, off the beaten path. I dont need calculations to look at a 2x4 alongside a 4x4 and figure out which is the strongest.I dont need calculations to se that 3/16th aluminium block cheeks are stronger than plastic ones.I dont need calculations to see that the parts which make up a $30 block can be easily made in minutes ,out of less than $2 worth of material.
Check for the books 'Around the World on Viski" by Don Shore, " Arctic Oddysy " by Len Sherman. "Northwest Passage on Ten Dollars a Day " by George Hone, and "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman for substantiation, unless you consider all these people and their crews liars, as determined by armchair experts who were not there, but can tell by their telepathic powers what really did or did not happen.
Nothing on the Don Shore book. $20 for the Len Sherman book (10 times more than a BrentBlock). And as for "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman, $10 - and this is the guy Brent called a drunk? I'd rather have the block and save some coin for cruising.
My boat is an hour or two maintenance a year.
Compare with above and below. See photos.
It was in this thread where you said you consider it bad seamanship to not try to get the last quarter knot out of a boat, at all costs. Dont have time to hunt it down.
A 303 british will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, weight 69 lbs per sq ft, dry, much heavier wet.. You can see that stump in Von Donop inlet, just west of the lagoon. It will barely shoot thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, and only if solidly supported, weight 15 lbs per sq foot. Or, if you have a freind with a 303 or 308, same energy, you can try it yourself. And you say the wood is stronger? Now thats making stuff up! That takes a bit of self delusion to believe.
Haven't tried ballistics on Fibreglass .
A yacht designer doing extensive, real life testing.
One can call oneself a designer without ever having set foot on a boat, some do. So tell us of your extensive experience in cruising for long terms, and crossing oceans, before you first began calling yourself a designer ;Bob, Jeff?
It appears that Clive Hamman has more cruising experience than Brent - and disagrees with Brent's maintenance claims. According to Brent, go with the experience.
The biggest hurdles most wanabe cruisers face are time and money, which most designers ignore competely.
Still trying to figure out the actual time and money requirements (worst-case) for one of Brent's boats. So far he's ignoring the question completely.
The first 36 I built pounded on a Baja lee shore in 8 to12 ft surf for 16 days, and was pulled off thru 12 ft surf ,lifted and dropped on every wave for 1/4 mile. A wood or fibreglass boat would have broken up in minutes, but you say they are stronger than steel? Now thats making stuff up. THe sistership to Moitessiers Joshua ," Trismus" was blown ashore on Rangiroa and abandoned in 1975. Ten years later she was pulled off intact and used for shipping coconuts around. Would a wood or fibreglas boat have survived that long? And you say wood and fibreglass are stronger? Now thats making stuff up. Better hang onto your crock Bob. You are gonna need it, more than anyone else here.
You claim that cruisers dodging Fukashima debris would be better of on a boat which would have broken up quickly in those conditions? Now thats making stuff up! Wood is the weakest, most problem prone material ever used for a boat.
Someone on the origamiboats site mentioned someone who was bragging about taking 6 weeks to get a 35 ft Roberts pre cut shell together, something I have done in a week. Could the comparatively horrendously complicated building methods used in the Roberts have something to do with it? I have even had people claim that the 180 feet of chine weld on them takes no longer to cut, grind, fit, and weld than the 28 feet of chine on my 36. Now thats making stuff up!
Jeff claims that if he makes a big fibreglass hammer it can pound thru 3/16th plate more easily than a steel hammer of the same weight? Now thats making stuff up!
Yes fibreglass boats are cheap. I have encouraged people getting into cruising, to buy one to get some expeerince on one, knowing full well that they wil eventually want one of my steel boats . One just built a 36 and his fibreglass boat will soon be up for sale. Others are dreaming of owning one of my boats .One plans to upgrade form a Roberts to one of mine this fall. All the fibreglass boats have deck leaks. They are giving them away for good reason. Their designers have fallen on hard times lately. I have been turning down a lot of work lately, more than I could ever do.
Yes, when you know that you can hit most rocks without any serious damage, or ,in most cases zero damage, you tend to get a bit careless, but why would you worry about it anyway? Do you consider it good seamanship, and thus "Wise" to choose a boat which would sink in those circumstances? Seamanship begins with the choice of boat.
And you claim that a boat which can survive such incidents undamaged, is a poor choice, or not as strong as a boat which would suffer severe damage in the same incident? Now thats making stuff up! Go get your crock,Bob!
The last two trips I made home from Tonga to BC took 23 days from Hawaii, beating into strong trade winds for the first half , not exactly poor windward performance for a heavily loaded 31 footer, with all I own on board.
PS. Have you tried wooden rigging wire? Why not ,if you believe it is stronger?
Sounds like you should buy a fiberglass boat first, go cruising and have fun. Then if you get scared of Fukushima Debris and want to hit some reefs, rocks, and logs, you should sell the plastic boat and build one of Brent's. I think that's reasonable.
Jeff , when your criteria are low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance, could you put together your wood and kevlar hull and decks for a 36 for $9K worth of materials, in less that a week with only one skilled worker and one unskilled, working in a backyard, which I have done for a 36? How far could you get in that time with $9K worth of materials? Would it survive a sledge hammer for as long as you cared to pound, as one of my boats will?
Hull and decks should cost $9K and take a week to get done. Can you
do it for that?
Now THIS one is COMPLETELY bogus!
When I guy discovers a way to reduce the time to get a steel shell together by 90% doesnt try to monopolize the knowledge, but trains others how to do his job, then sends enough work for one of his students to build himself two boats and build a house , forgoing all that income to go cruising…
When he writes a book telling others how to do it ( His trade secrets) and charges the lowest price for any marine book for it…
When he charges $350 for a set of plans for a 36…
When he spends many years on chatlines ,offering far more affordable solutions to their problems, free of charge, at no benefit to himself , and trying to convince cruisers that using their heads instead of their pocket books to solve problems in order to maximize their cruisng play time…
When he offers to give his book revenues to a shelter for abused women, donates much to such shelters, out of a minimal income, gets a cop fired for advocating an abuser try a ballistic solution on his victim, at some risk and no benefit for himself,
and beats up the odd wife abuser, and helps his victims out, again at no benefit to himself…
When he posts on several sites how to build a beter sheet block for $2 than most are paying $30 or more for…
What doies Smack call him?
What is his approach to those without a lot of money trying to get off the treadmill?
Discouragement, cynicism and obstructionism, along with a lot of elitist guilt tripping.
$350 for plans, $54 for DVDs, $20 for the book, and the odd wife-beater beating for free. Is that $424 well spent in getting you toward your cruising goal? If not, at least some cops were fired and wife-beaters beat.
I have had zero credible, affordable competition in this area for a while now, in well built steel boats.
It is true that the market for steel boats seems incredibly small.
I'd consider a nit Whit someone who would pay a designer who has zero hands on experience in building in steel, who has never got his hands dirty building a steel boat, nor crossing an ocean in a steel boat, nor maintained one for any length of time , but goes by hearsay and old wives tales about steel boats, mostly propagated by those who are trying to sell them something else.
More conversation with highly respected designer.
Nothing saves your bacon no matter what. Steel just exponentially improves the odds, the definition of good seamanship improving the odds. How many Sleavin family type disasters could be avoided had they not been discouraged by disinformation, from choosing a steel boat? It would have saved theirs.
The Sleavin family remark is completely outrageous on every level. Here are photos of the freighter than ran down the Sleavin's boat:
Brent, if you actually believe that "Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died.", you should be willing to put this claim to the test in your own boat...with you aboard...with a freighter this size running you down at cruising speed. We'll wait for the video and report.
More on the Sleavins.
Tragedy Ends Family's Sailing Adventure : Accident: Their yacht is hit off New Zealand. The Santa Clarita woman is saved but husband, children are lost at sea. - Los Angeles Times
+++++++++++++Brent claims Jeff_H said something idiotic, when it was actually Brent that said it.++++++++++
I just measured the hole in 3/8th plate made by a 30 calibre bullet. It measured 48 calibre, not exactly exploding the bullet, and not making a significantly bigger hole, when I have seen them expand at least as much, or more in wood.
I wouldn't put much faith in the math skills or judgement of anyone who believes that the energy needed to push a 180 grain projectile hard enough to go thru 23 inches of fir, can be contained in a wooden barrel. I saw a 3 inch shell hole in a sunken tug at Fanning Island thru the iron prop. Anyone there can dive on it, just off the village. You couldn't get that kind of energy from a wooden barrel.
It just shows how ludicrous the comments about the strength of wood made here really are.
Now THAT I agree with, Brent. Who on earth would even conceive the preposterous idea of using wood for a gun barrel? Ludicrous!
Then you could also do wooden gun barrels .
Oh, yeah, it was you.
In this debate I am reminded of the time I went to a steel boat gathering at the Bluewater Cruising Association. I showed up in bluejeans . That was in the early 80s. A guy selling very expensive steel boats bondoed to look like fibreglass boats showed up in a pin striped suit with gold cuff links. People thought "Gee, if he has on a pin striped suit with gold cuff links, he surely must know a lot more about steel boatbuilding than the guy in blue jeans. A friend went to have a look at one of his imitation fibreglass boats which the guy in the suit said was about to be spray foamed. It was welded one side only and you could see nearly the thickness of the metal into the grove where the inside weld should have been The outside weld had been ground flush, leaving only the thickness of a beer can holding it together. She had only a thin coating of primer inside no proper epoxy which is one coat of primer more than Foulkes of Fehr boars, other "BC Professionally" Built boats . I met a KIWI who told me his friend had bought one of these imitation fibreglas boats , he contract specified 2 inches of weld on the stringers every 6 inches. He found his had a half inch of weld every 3 ft holding his stringers in.He went after the guy in the suit ,with lawsuit and when he finally caught him the guy in the suit declared bankruptcy and closed his shop.
No one I have built a boat for in the last 37 years has had any such complaints, even if I do wear blue jeans, and not a pin striped suit with gold cufflinks
When you talk about charging $34,000 for a set of plans , you are talking about screwing a wannabe cruiser out of decades of cruising funds, for what, a boat that may go a quarter knot faster? Naive decorative priorities from someone who has never done any of the kind of cruising his clients hope to do, who has zero hands on boatbuilding experience ? You learn a lot getting your hands dirty about the best way of doing things which you would never learn from drawing pictures.How useful will that quarter of a knot be compared to an extra $34,000 in the kitty?
I would never consider screwing a client out of money which I don't need, and in the process, screwing them out of their cruising dreams.
See above numbers (derived by customer accounts found on the interwebs, not from the actual designer/builder who won't provide them) then re-read this post. $34K for designs from a world-renown designer, or $424-plus-~$35+K and several years. Either way, you're still not in the water.
I would never consider screwing a client out of money which I don't need, and in the process, screwing them out of their cruising dreams .I charge $30 an hour, which is all the money I ever need out of a job. People tell me I could charge a lot more, but why would I when I don't need the money. I get more satisfaction out of seeing them living their dream, and having made it possible, than I ever could by screwing them out of it.
I plan to train 4 more people how to build my boats this winter; youth , so I can send all my work to them.
See above about screwing. Also, I've offered him $33/hr for the blocks ( 10% raise). No luck yet.
I quit being a Karate sucker many decades ago.
How you make a few extra bucks around the dojo is no business of ours.
The propaganda against steel boats, spread by those who are trying to sell something else, have sent many families to sea in boats which are far less able to survive a collision with anything . The Sleavins may have been one such example , among how many more, we will never know.
The best seamanship in the world wont prevent you from hitting Fukashima debris on a foggy night. ( Like that huge concrete dock which floated up on an Oregon beach) A steel hull will drastically improve your odds of surviving. I once built a 36 for a doctor who had sailed his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back to BC. He said the peace of mind sailing at night in a steel hull, with his family aboard , was exponentially greater than in his fibreglass hull.
You can find his latest adventures by doing a search under Silas Crosby.
The Sleavins again. Along with the Fukushima Debris, are you seeing the marketing angle here? What is the main reason to buy/build a BrentBoat? It ain't the "dream" of cruising. It's the nightmare of cruising.
Basically Bob , I am trying to prove that those without mega bucks can build and go to sea in boats which don't cost a fortune ,with gear that doesn't cost a fortune, but which are much better boats and gear for their purposes, than the commercial builders and ship swindlers are selling.
Macolm was anything but happy about your Reliance 37 or the disinformation you gave him about directional stability. You had it 180 degrees bass ackwards.
I dont keep track of all the books and plans I send out.
Chuck Norris wouldn't stand a chance against a good amateur boxer.
Definitely one of BS’s most outlandish claims.
I have never claimed that fibrglass boats are useless. They are extremely cheap the older ones far better built than the newer, far more expensive ones. They are often far cheaper than any steel boat you could build . All my clients know that. I tell them that. They just dont want a plastic boat in which you have to worry about running into things in the night .
I think the answer to the 99%-er cruiser wannabe should be pretty clear by now.
You did say you start by screwing them out of several decades worth of cruising funds, right off the bat.
See numbers above and below. Who's getting screwed?
A freind many years ago, priced the cost of fibreglassing materials for a Bristol chanel cutter, Ater being given a quote of $12,000 for hull and decks, he watched me pull a 31ft hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, keels, rudder and skeg together in a couple of weeks,for $3500. Then, considering the cost of deck hardware for a fibreglass boat vs $1 a pound for the stainless to do it on a steel boat, he walked away from that project, and has been building steel boats ever since.
Is it $9K or $3,500? We keep going back and forth.
My boats are fast, go to windward well, and make good passage times. They have often outsailed fibreglass boats they were not supposed to outsail, including Beneteaus. Their strength has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt, over the last 32 years. There is no point in waterproof bulkheads, as there is little if any chance of punching a hole in 3/16th plate on a 36 footer. They have also proven that, with good initial preparation, planning and painting ,maintenance can be reduced to less that of a fibreglass boat undergoing hard , heavy full time use. Nothing breaks, pulls loose, or leaks in welded down gear, unlike with bolted down gear on fibreglass.
Yet you have "air-tight" hatches and ports? I will grant Brent that bolted down stuff on fiberglass does typically require work every 5-10 years...maybe less if it's being sailed full time. But I don't know many people who lose sleep over this. It's not that big of a deal.
If my clients wanted a fibreglass boat, they would have bought a fibreglas boat . Many have, then decided to upgrade to steel. It is no secret to anyone sniffing around boats, that they are available for a fraction the cost of materials, in any size shape and a huge variety of designs. Relatively good plastic boats are a dime a dozen.
Again, this is great advice as far as I'm concerned.
Good steel boats are rare around here. For anyone wanting one which doesn't take forever to build , one which uses the most modern methods, I have no competition. Most of my boats are 3/16th hull plate 1/8th decks, cabin, cockpit, and wheelhouse, 1/4 inch keel sides, half inch leading edges, and half inch bottomplate, welded both sides, cold galvanized wheelabraded and primed, 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside, three coats of epoxy tar inside, sprayfoamed , and all outside corners trimed with stainless, reducing maintenance by over 80%
You just wont find a commercially built boat around here built to those standards. If anyone did , it would be priced far beyond the means of most cruisers. For a home builder it means a bit of extra time and expense, their own time. For a commercial builder, fully welded, a good paint job inside and out, stainless trim, extra steel thickness in important areas, etc, would mean bankrupcy, and no credit given to him by customers, who have no comprehension of the importance of such matters.
If these boats are rare, how does that square with the 200 boats built claim above? I guess you can see why Brent has no competition as he claimed earlier.
When I was a beginner I used to drool at all the good stuff in the marine supplies. After crossing the Pacific etc, I laughed at all the useless ways they have to sucker beginers into spending their money on such flimsy useless crap.
Pauls boat is taking him forever because it is a 57 footer, not a 36 footer, far more complex multi chine, not my single chine, and definitely not a shape I would ever design.
I leave the lying to those who tell people it is worth their expense to pay them decades worth of cruising funds to draw pictures for them.
I only helped Clive get the shell of Nuthin Wong together,from an old Chinese design he gave me, not my design, for a trade, the rest was his department, not mine. Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, pounded by ocean swells, zero hull damage. How long would one of to your dainty little plastic things have lasted in those conditions.
Note that Brent now says Clive’s boat ISN'T his - yet this is one of the main examples he uses for how strong “his boats” are.
Which is it?
I gave my 31 footer,30 gallons of epoxy at the outset, inside and out, along with a lot of marine enamel. All outside corners are trimed with stainless. My 29 year od paint job is as good as the day I put it on, except for the odd paint chip, where I do my 2 hours year on touch up. When a boat gets to that stage , sandblasting and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside three inside and a UV resistant coat over that wil eliminate most of the maintenace for decades.
Clives Time on a med reef is documented in his last book "No Fixed Address" A good read ,hard to put down. His time on the Panama reef in Boca de Toros will be covered in his next book. Or if you know anyone in Bocan de Toros, they can confirm it. A "Friend" who he left to look after her, towed it on the reef so his friends could strip her. He had to stay in Canada to get his pension in order. They only recently got her off.
I'l ask him to post the videos here when I get in contact with him again.
Bob you are a liar when you claim that a carbon fibre rudder at huge expense is a good idea for the average cruiser, when you claim that style over substance is a good priority fir the average cruiser,or you claim that you actually earn the $34000 for drawing pictures of boats , when some can buy a whole boat and go cruising for a year for less money,and you give this advice with little or no offshore cruising experience and zero hands on boatbuilding expereince. You lie when you imply that with zero experience owning and maintaining a steel boat, you know more about the costs of doing so, than someone who has owned, designed, built and maintained steel boats for 37 years. Then you follow it up with the childish, adolecent jeering of a 13 year old .
Bob Perry: $34,000. Brent Swain: $30,424 (see site, tools, equipment, utilities, etc. below). NOW you're ready to start building the boat you chose.
Clive has hit two reefs in 21 years of full time cruising around the world, one in the Balerics when he was aboard and one when he was thousands of miles away, and thief towed her onto a reef.
My clients have had no complaints about maintenance, in fact they all say they have very little to do. I met a guy in New Zealand ( Nelson) who had a steel Matangi motorsailer he had built in Australia. He said that, after years of owning wood and fibreglass boats, he was amazed at how little mainenance his steel boat took.
Those who tell you they have tons of maintenance on their steel boats simply havent figured it out yet, and are thus a poor source of information on the subject. You'd be better off to get your advice from someone who has little maintenace on his steel boat.
Clive mentions on his website that maintaining a steel boat is time consuming and very expensive. And his boat is a craphole.
Bear in mind that this is advice from someone who has never built a boat never cruised offshore...
Remember, Clive has as much or more cruising experience in a steel boat than Brent does. Who are you going to believe?
There is no way I worked 500 hours on that boat . Did most of it in the month of June 1992, then went sailing for the rest of the summer. Steve worked part time on her, while working as a doctor in Courtenay. Being a doctor who had just sold a Spencer 35 he had sailed to New Zealand and back ,he could afford to buy new what most would have time to find used.
The steel for the keels is a 8 ft by 12 ft 1/4 inch plate and the half inch bottoms , 6 inches wide by 6 ft long , about 1,000 lbs in total for the steel. It would take more of your AIG , Enron style, creative calculating to make it 2,000 lbs. The plans don't call for the extra 500 lbs of ballast and Steve is the only one who has put that much in.
Brent implies a customer is lying on his blog.
I launched my 31 a month after the steel arrived in 84. The folks at Newcastle marina can confirm that. Winston Bushnell can confirm that.
I had $4,000 to my name, total when I ordered the steel, then $40 when I launched her. Then I made another $2,000 to detail rig and get her liveable, by october the same year after having puled Uller and Moon Raven together in June of that year. The folks on Cortes Island can confirm that.
These figures are ~30 years old. They have absolutely no relevance to today...unless you think you can do this too.
I spent three weeks in Winnipeg building Ron Rietsma's boat which sails on lake Winnipeg. In those three weeks I got most of the steel work done including the mast, self steering , all deck details, tankage , lifelines handrails hatches , etc etc in effect all the steel detailing as well. I was only there for three weeks.
Can you meet this schedule for your own BrentBoat? If not, why?
Sure, some, who don't have a lot of money, will be stupid enough to to buy everything new , salvage nothing, despite our being awash in perfectly good used gear with absolutely nothing wrong with it, then complain about the cost of everything. Some will spend their working time smoking dope and drinking, or taking trips to Asia the west Indies, etc, do. doing nothing on the boat for years on end, then complain about how long it is taking,Some have. I have only claimed that one CAN get a boat together quickly without it costing a fortune.
If you didn’t finish your BrentBoat on schedule - are you stupid, a dope smoker, or a drunk?
I let people who want to build a steel boat, find a site buy the materials acquoire the tools then hire me for an hourly wage plus expenses, and I help them get the basic shell to apoint where they can handle the rest.
Your first 3 steps: find a build site, spends thousands on materials, and “acquire tools”...cost: tens of thousands...plus $350 for the plans, $54 for the DVS, and $20 for the book. I’d say the total to this point is easily nearing the $34K you’d pay Bob Perry for a set of plans...and you STILL haven't even STARTED your BrentBoat. (See “screwing the cruiser” above.)
I can give some proices for the last 36 I built.
Mast and all standing rigging- zero
Sails - zero.
Sheet and halyard winches - zero
Running rigging and blocks- zero
Two anchors with plenty of almost new rode- zero
He was given an old boat with all the gear listed above, in good shape, for free.
With so many cheap or freebe boats out there, it shows how useless, and needlessly discouraging cost estimates can be.
How many BrentBoaters have finished their boat with this budget? Did any of you care about a budget beforehand? (See above.)
Another run at the cost and schedule you can expect when you build your BrentBoat:
Two anchors with long rodes, in good condition, almost unused - free. They came with the freebe boat.
Stainless galley sink- free from the dumpster. Force ten three burner propane galley stove with oven - free, donated by a guy who came into an inheritance, who bought himself a new one.
That boat, started last mid october, and worked on two or three days a week most of the winter, will be launching this coming wedneday.
Here are some costs for my boat.
Stainless woodstove - $25 worth of scrap stainless and ten dollars worth of welding rod. Gally cook stove -$50 from harbor freight.
Interior - 50 dollars , plywood either given to me or scrounged off the beaches, and tropical hardwood from motorcycle crates, mostly gumwood.
Stainles galley sink - free from a dumpster. Bilge pumps- $10 worth of scrap stainless and $5 worth of welding rods. 2 diaphragms for $5 each.
Composting head - $25 worth of materials. Roller furler- $80 worth of materials. Anchors - free materials from scrap piles and $3 worth of welding rod. Anchor winch - $35 worth of scrap stainless and $10 worth of welding rod. Mast - free, a gift of spruce. Turnbuckles $22 each, new, galvanized 5/8th inch. 5/16th galv rigging wire , $24 from a scrapyard. Blocks- $2 each made from scrap aluminium and poly sheet.
A kid, whom I'm training to do my job , found enough plywood in a dump, to build his interior several times over, in a single trip..
That's $346 if you’re counting. Maybe you can start your budget spreadsheet with these figures?
Right, another 1,000 or 2,000 lbs in the keel structure .Right on, closer to 1,000 lbs,exactly as Steve said,. After ther passage of 21 years the memory of how many hours I spent on her fades, especialy someone elses hours.
Now he’s backtracking on calling his customer a liar. That’s good.
You guys keep forgeting I am retired and if someone would rather buy a plastic boat and risk his life among the debris, I dont give a rat's ass if he doesnt buy my book or plans.
I make my book available to those who know better than to blow their cruising funds on commercialy made crap, when they can make far better boats and gear for a fraction the cost , themselves, the only ones I am interested in dealing with. Yes I enjoy shooting ducks off a fence especially the feather brained ducks who make such ridiculous comments that a wooden boat is stronger than a steel one. Such crap must be challenged, lest someone die from believing it.
Yes. Such crap must be challenged.
When Robin Knox johnston finished his circumnavigation in Suhaili, she was drooling rust everywhere, far more so than Moitessiers Joshua. Joshua was built of steel, Suhaili was built of some snobby pretentious material called "TEAK' ( a type of dead vegitation) a far inferior boat building material than steel.
Smackdaddy, how did you lose your last boat?
RKJ won the race. Moitissier went crazy. Clear lesson: Steel boats drive people insane and make them losers?
I checked Steve's blog again, and see no mention of the boat being dead empty, while crossing an ocean. Can you cross an ocean in a completely empty boat, or predict exactly what amount of weight any owner will put aboard, as you imply I should be doing?
This is the way Brent refuses to post a weight study for his design. It’s Steve’s writing that’s the problem.
I have only dealt with two people who loved their pot and booze too much to finish their boat. One, after pulling the hull together, did nothinjg for several years onher. I volenteered 8 hours and in that time , including diigging the steel out of the grass grown over it. If one is short of money, and lack of money will shorten ones cruising time, only then is buying new foolish.
Make sure to weigh how much you like your pot and booze before becoming one of Brent’s object lessons. And if you're short on money and want more cruising time, see “cheap fiberglass boats” above.
My steel came wheelabraded and primed with carboweld cold galvanizing zinc rich primer, 85% zinc dry weight. I touched up the welds with a similar product, washed all the welding smoke off, with first TSP then vinegar then water, let her dry, then gave her 5 coats of bar rust 235 brown on the hull, three coats inside, and four on the decks. The thicker the epoxy the better. This I covered ,for colour and UV protection with marine enamel. Epoxy gets continuously thiner under UV. I give her another coat of cheap marine enamel every few years. To get anything to stick to epoxy, you have to put your first coat of enamel or urethane on the last coat of epoxy, wet on wet. Otherwise it will fall off in sheets.If you are using epoxy tar, it will bleed thru and look like hell. Give it another coat in 24 hours, then leave it alone for several weeks, to harden up well. Then you can put any colour you want over it , including white, and it will not bleed thru .
Do the whole inside of the hull this way, wherever there are hollows. Dont worry about what it looks like inside, that will be covered with many coats of epoxy tar and sprayfoam, and never seen again. It's the outside, and minimizing filler which counts.
Then why is Brent checking his interior hull under the foam?
Bob. You have some of the best looking boats out there, second only to mine.
Anyone can check the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups) or my book, or Alex's video and see origami methods being used to build decks, cabins, keels, rudders, skegs, cockpit and wheelhouses which we have done since the first origami boats I built in 1980, something Kasten says cant be done. Origami methods mean welding deck beams and stringers on, on a workbench working at a comfortable level ,eliminating overhead welding in awkward positions for that job. As I pointed out, I have put the decks on a 36 in 8 hours, not so easy working overhead in the traditional way. My time and money saving methods go far beyond the construction of a hull, including saving a lot of money on detailing and fitting out.. You can get more factual information from the origamiboats site, yahoo groups, from people who have actual hands on experience with the method, rather than uninformed speculation, misleadingly offered as fact .
Can you meet this timeline and budget? Is that really what it will take for you to do it?
Brent is temporarily banned for insulting Bob Perry's wife...
Have you guys seen this guys wife? Aesthetics?
No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.
This definitely doesn't square with A.D.'s letter on Latitude 38 when he claims this:
I guess it's no surprise that he has been banned from several boatbuilding sites. Why? Because he challenges the status quo. And because he advocates a simple, inexpensive approach to boating while eschewing the "just throw money at it and pay experts" approach advocated by the advertising sponsors of the boating media.
This had nothing to do with status quo or greed. Sailors don't insult other sailors' family. Ever. Yet Brent does, and is banned for it - and you defend him by blaming the forum? Classy.
I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. After Bobs very personal insults to me and my work, I guess I didn't see the part where he and others are allowed to insult anyone they please with impunity, and their targets are nor allowed to respond in kind. I had no business involving an inocent third party. If you go back you will find my responses are just that, responses to personal insults, first hurled at me.
"I apologize for insulting a sailor’s wife by calling her fat and ugly. But it’s his fault for making me do it."
The interesting thing about my 36 was ,when I first drew her up, while it can take many days to get things right, erasing and redrawing lines to get the numbers right , for the 36 they seemed to just drop into place. On the first drawing the LBC was right where I wanted it, 5.4 stations, as was the prismatic coefficient, .54 ,and the displacement. I rechecked it several times and it was right on. Ditto the hull balance, when heeled 25 degrees.
I then, carefully made a very accurate model, to take the plate shapes off. The model also gives you the option of double checking the LCB, by ballasting it till it floats on her lines, then balancing the model on a pencil. The balance point is your LCB. Weighing it, then multiplying the model's weight by the cube of the scale, gives you the weigh of the full sized boat ,floating on the same waterline. For a 1/12th scale,
This is the engineering method used on BrentBoats. I think he also used a grocery store scale for the weight study.
When Allan Farrel who has built many very successful boats by eye, over many decades, never calculating anything mathematically, made a model of his traditional junk 'China Cloud" again with no calculations, I took his model to a digital grocery store scale, and had it weighed. Mutiplying this weight by the cube of the scale, gave me 13,000 lbs which is what she weighed floating on her lines.
Calculators are redundant.
The calculations for the pipe Dream Sloop, a 36 is in the back of the book "Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, given at around 710 lbs. Interiors for most 36 footers needn't vary much from that , and if they go radically different , there is no predicting what it will be.
Another method of calcluating your costs when building a BrentBoat...and not smoking dope.
Reducing the number of feet of chine weld from 400 feet to 28 feet definitely reduces welding time. Alex paid $20 a month for the farm yard he built in. My methods don't require a shop. Very few of my boats have been built inside.
And more budget numbers...if you only had the phone number for that farmer. Otherwise, it will be quite a bit more expensive for you in the real world.
Being a twin keeler ,with much of my time drying out , paint doesn't last long on my keel bottoms, and they have been bare 99% of the last 29 years. Not much sign of any corrosion or pitting. Zincs keep her in good shape, welded on for guaranteed contact. I use stainless bolts for temporary contact, with stainless weld around the bolt holes, to guarantee stainless to stainless contact, til I can get a tack on. Otherwise, a bit of rust on the strap can insulate the zinc from the hull, making it useless. I used epoxy tar when I launched in 84. On m first haulout, in 2,000, I gave her a coat of Wasser tar with copper ablative paint over it. Since then I have tried epoxy with epoxy cop antifouling paint, wet on wet, which seems to work much better than ablative paint, and you can scrub it any time. I hope to do the whole hull underwater that way, when full pension rolls in.
You only need a bottom job every 40-50 years?
I started my steel boat April 12th 84, launched her May 12th 84, had her sailing by mid October 84,. and moved aboard.The second 36 I build was started February 4th 82 launched april 15th 82 , went for her first sail, May
24th 82 then headed for Mexico November the same year.
Takes a lot of focus , but can be done, and has been many times.
Said by someone with zero hands on steel boat building experience,and zero experience in cruising in and maintaining a steel boat for any length of time. Not a reliable source of any info on steel boats
Just remember, Brent doesn’t have the experience Clive has. And Clive disagrees with Brent. Who are you going to believe? More experienced customer or less experienced salesman?
Bob, a friend just bought one of your boats . Nice looking boat. Could you explain the logic in stanchions so short, that all they can hope to accomplish is to make sure you hit the water head first instead if feet first? If "yachtiness" prevails , they will have on high visibility yellow boots, to maker sure you can see their feet, when they are up to their necks in murky water.
How very yotty!
Brent's stanchions are only 34" tall. That's still 2" below what's considered a safe handrail height around the world. So be careful on a BrentBoat.
Mild steel is 60,000 PSI tensile and compression strength . That is 11250 per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels. That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?
So at the specific point of puncture (a hole in the hull which will kill you), you’re saying that there is 4M pounds of protection? That’s pretty damn safe.
My hulls are all single thickness, 1/8th for the decks cabin, etc, 3/16th for the hull ,1/4 for the keel sides, and half inch for the keel bottom ( with 4500 lbs of lead ballast poured on top)
The green, first time boatbuilder will get sailing a lot faster using my methods, than he ever will using any other methods, for a fraction the cost. That has been well proven, time and time again.
I have never built a boat for anyone in the top 1% of income earners, but have built most for people in the bottom end of the income scale, people who could never have afforded a good steel boat any other way.
Does this mean don’t build a BrentBoat unless he’s willing to help you? And unless you’re willing to stop drinking beer and getting baked?
He assumed he had pants to crap in, or he would not have been surprised when he could finally see he didn't have any. Believing he had pants to crap in, he crapped anyway, without trying to take them down, or he would have realized then, that he had none on.
I really don’t know what to say on this one.
With origami boats you can whack her with a sledge hammer, as hard as you want, away from chines, without denting or damaging her in any way. The plate simply springs back with nothing hard to bend the plate against. It only dents if your whack her near a hard point, such as a chine . That is why my 36 footers have survived pounding on lee shores and coral, in big surf, with no hull dents. Had they been framed, they would have been severely dented between the frames.
Aren’t we supposed to be sailing
Long after the money has been spent , the satisfaction of having helped someone fulfill their dreams remains. Making money less relevant in one's life, enables one to do that far more often, without regard for money. Concentrate on helping people realize their dreams, and the money will take care of itself.
Whose money are we talking about here? Your $350? Or the BrentBoat builder’s $50K plus?
More BS strength calculations:
Steel origami boat T- bones steel barge at hull speed . Zero damage. Steel origami boat pounds for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf with zero damage . Steel origami boat pounds across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and is pulled off thru similar surf . Zero damage . Steel origami boat goes thru NW passage in one summer .Zero damage . Steel origami boat pounds thru a quarter mile of five inch ice . Zero damage.
Fiberglass boat pounds in surf . Demolished in minutes. Results conclusive. No mathematical exhibitionism ( or fantasy) necessary!
No math necessary.
Another huge advantage of steel is you get to eliminate the heat exchanger, the salt water pump ,the thru hulls for cooling water, and the related plumbing. You get to eliminate the raw water strainer and any chance of your engines cooling system being plugged by sea weeds and marine growth. You simply turn a portion of your hull into a cooling tank. Aluminium works even better ,as it transfers heat as quickly as anything. One diesel mechanic, who works on yachts, was quoted as saying "If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work."
Over 60% of marine diesel engine failures com Friends, who went thru two engines since 98, caused by condensation from a wet exhaust corroding the valves, have gone for a dry exhaust, as have many others I know, after serious engine damage caused by wet exhausts.
I have been using a dry exhaust for nearly 40 years , no problems. Commercial boat operators laugh at the foolishness of yachties pumping sea water into their exhausts.
After years of sitting out in an open cockpit in the driving rain, I think a cruising boat without a pilot house is "masochistic insanity." It's also bad seamanship. Being exposed to the elements over time can cloud ones judgement. We call our boats "Pleasure Boats" and there is little pleasure in an open cockpit in bad weather.
Will you have to go through “years of sitting out in an open cockpit in the driving rain” before you understand the value of some kind of shelter (pilot house, bimini, foulies, umbrella, etc.)? I know experience trumps numbers - but really? Wouldn't it be easier to rely on those who actually know there are better ways to do things, like a second grader with an umbrella?
Any cruising boat designer strives to make his own designs the perfect boat based on his own experience ( or lack of it)and that of his clients, and their feedback over may years . That is what I have tried to do . So obviously, my 36 would be my first choice for a couple.
Wait - don’t you singlehand?
"Around the World on Viski" by Don Shore is a hard book to put down, as is " No Fixed Address " By Clive Hammil. Altho older , "The Long Way " and "Cape Horn, the Logical Route" by Bernard Moitessier are also hard books to put down
They’re expensive (if available at all) books to buy if you’re trying to build a cruising kitty. I think you'd be much better off putting that money into your plastic boat.
You are not going to fall off a wave faster than hitting a steel barge at 6 knots, which my boats have done with impunity. My boat is 29 years old with her original paint job , in excellent shape.
It takes a tiny amount of steel to make a rust streak, or a huge amount of rust. Seconds with muriatic acid eliminates them quickly.
Personal Attack removed per forum rules. Jeff_H SailNet moderator
Personal attack? Wait - didn’t you read the letter on Latitude38? Isn’t it fact that Brent is only banned by elitist forums who are trying to protect the yachting industry when he merely goes against the “status quo”? Seeing a pattern A.D.?
GRP Is not cheaper for a new boat. You couldnt build a GRP hull for anwhere near as cheaply as a steel boat. The last quote we got for the steel for a 36 this past winter was $9K. How much fibreglassing materials can you get for that much money? Not enough to build a 36 ft hull and deck, by any stretch of the imagination. The odds of dying in a GRP boat aground in surf are far greater than in a steel boat and exponentially greater in a mid ocean collision in GRP compared to steel.
My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP cruising boats.
The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less.
So cruiser, do you want to cruise or do you want to build?
All boats are unfinished at some point in their construction.
I once had a dirty bottom and a windward bash a head of me, in a very small tide zone . Dragged a poly tarp under my boat ,let it float up against my hull, then poured a gallon of bleach down into it. By next morning all the weeds had fallen off. Fresh water ( including rain water) can do the same , over a longer time span.
A Japanese friend said he had a friend who swore by ground wasabi in his antifouling.
Epoxy tar with wasabi. Got it.
Sure Bob. And what was the price tag on those boats and sails? Anything the average cruiser could afford? Anything under $35K? What was the draft? Anything practical for cruising? How big a crew do they require? Could they be handled by a couple? What were their annual maintenance costs? Did they have those bad seamanship, 24 inch high, extruded tinfoil stanchions?
I have yet to hear of a single innovation by Bob,to deal with the biggest hurdle cruisers face, time and money. His approach seems to be elitism, discouragement and obstructionism..
Brent, you really should read Bob's book. I think you'll "hear of" many such innovations.
I do. Got my hand shaken and more compliments and invitations this summer than I can count. Anyone interested in steel boats, or simple cruising solutions in general , wants to pick my brain. Fortunately, living on a steel boat lets me sail away any time I choose.
More invitations than you can count? See the math skills above. As for potential customers interested in steel boats - check out the BS Yachts customer service commitment.
On my last trip from BC to Tonga and back ,I never took water from ashore, catching all I needed from my decks, and drinking water from my mainsail via lazy bag held up by lazy jacks. A plastic bucket under the front end with a 3/4 plastic thru hull and hose, leading to a plastic valve below decks, lets you fill your tanks without going on deck in the night. Washed my clothes and bod in sea water with dishwashing soap, no problem. Rinsed beans in sea water, no problem. Even soaked them in sea water, no problem . Added three cups of fresh for cooking, which left just the right amount of salt in them. Washed dishes in salt water , with only a brief rinse required afterwards, using very little fresh water.
Didn't have my watermaker then. Now I have one, but no urge to go anywhere at the moment. Lots of the best water in the world here , free for the taking.
That was in the 80s. I wasn't around when he sandblasted, or foamed. If you didn't get a picture of your self taking a crap, it has never happened?
Now that's analy retentive!
How about every day of your sailing experience? Those you don't have pictures of ,have never happened ?
After 4 1/2 months of pounbing on an open ocean coral reef "Nuthin Wong" is off and floating with no leaks . Most of her gear has been returned or replaced. She has been cleaned up and repainted. Clive would sell her for $30K , then spend the money on a smaller origami boat.
I have never claimed that an origami boat could survive any grounding, just that many have ( read 'Around the world on Viski" by Don Shore) making your odds of surviving such a grounding exponentially greater.
BS boat hold its value? Or will you have to sell it for scrap?
Mine survive , yours break up , or get lost at sea without a trace. Your suggestion that if you build a boat which wont survive a grounding, or collision , it will never happen, is super loonie. Shows an abysmal lack of hands on cruising experience.
Since we’ve only found evidence of maybe 10-12 BrentBoats out of the 200 you claim - I suppose we can conclude that the other 188 rusted through and were lost at sea without a trace?
You mentioned guy elsewhere on this site, who spent a fortune on a carbon fibre mast. After extensive cruising, he said the improvement was minimal, almost unnoticeable . What was the cost differential between the composite decks and the aluminiumn one? What was the price tag on the composite one?
Aluminum has the advantage of letting you weld most of your deck hardware down, eliminating any chance of deck leaks. A USanian in a plastic boat, a week or so ago, told me he has to re-bed most of his deck hardware every few years, to stop them from leaking . He said the strictest adherence to the directions hasn't solved the recurring problem. Given that substantial weight savings high up in a mast has given minimal improvement , how would such savings much lower down, at deck level, be enough to justify the expense, and deck leaks ?
This is the kind of blind worshipping of so called "High tech", which keeps so many boats in a marina for most of their lives, while the more practical, realistic and enlightened enjoy far emptier anchorages than would other wise be the case.
I guess I should be thanking the pedlars of high tech, for keeping my favorite anchorages free from over crowding, by the gullible deciples of the "Consumerism " religion.
Gullible Disciples? Don’t forget the dope smokers. Pot’s expensive when you're paying retail!
To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
Flat well painted surfaces rarely chip. Corners are the main source of paint chipping. Trimming all outside corners with stainless reduces maintenance by roughly 80%. That is why I put stainless cabinside handrails on the edge of the cabinside, instead of inboard. It also makes things a bit safer .
Bob. Ones ability to draw pretty pictures of boats has nothing to do with his experience, or total lack of hands on boat building experience ,or knowledge ,or hands on cruising experience. There are plenty of people who know absolutely nothing about boats, who can draw pretty pictures, and people who don't have an innovative, nor practical , experience based bone in their body, who can still draw pretty pictures of boats.
My clients prefer practical building and cruising experience over picture drawing ctaftmanship, as you so eloquently put it.
You say you have ctaftmanship?
Don't drink while posting.
See numbers above.
With a heavy material like steel, it is important to not duplicate parts making some irrelevant dead weight. I have seen some put a large number of gussets along the hull deck joint
See weight discussions above for this amusing turnabout.
Nor will your sniveling undo what I have accomplished.
Why are we only dyslexic when typing?
Dyslexics of the world, untie!
More mere “challenging of the status quo”?
If your impact was at the point where the collision bulkhead met the hull, the bulkhead would increase the odds of holing. If you can survive a hull speed collision with the sharp corner of a sunken barge with zero damage then the collision bulkhead would be redundant
Does this go back to the 4M pound strength of steel?
+++++++++Here is my first post on the blocks after I finally found the photos.++++++++++++++
Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about
Make your own block and test it. It only takes 20 minutes and $2 worth of materials.
The cheeks of a sheet block can be easily jig sawed out of 3/16th aluminium scrap. Some use spacers which can be made out of pipe , on the becket end, to space them the same as the width of the sheave. I prefer to leave the two cheeks attached by a strip of 3/4 inch wide aluminium, then bend it 180 degrees to make the becket. These cheeks should be sanded very smooth and well rounded to eliminate chafe.
Then it' s simply a matter of running a 3/8th ss bolt thru the sheave to make up the block.
You can make up sheaves by running a hole saw thru a sheet of plastic , such as a cutting board. Micarta, salvaged from electrical panels makes even better sheaves which will last several lifetimes. Black plastic is far more UV resistance , if you can find it.
After hole sawing it out, you put a carriage bolt thru it and put it in a drill chuck. Then you use a vise and machine the groove in it , using the drill like a lathe.
You can use a spacer to make a double block, or put different sized sheaves in line, like the yachtie blocks.
While I think bearings are a gimmick , if you insist , you can make the hole in the sheave a half inch wider than the bolt, then stack bits of 1/4 inch rod , made out of any material you like, around the pin and viola, roller bearings.
I have made a single block this way, using only hand tools in 20 minutes, a far stronger and more reliable block than most of the super expensive "Yachtie " blocks people get conned out of large sums of money for. A billionaire can't buy a better block for any amount of money. It takes less time to build one than it takes to travel to the ship swindler and buy a block .
Yet another of many examples of how building your own produces a far better product than the cheque book delivers.
Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-17-2011 at 04:35 PM.
I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".
As you can see, they are in perfect condition, with zero wear or corrosion after 29 years , and many Pacific crossings. If you want "shiny" you can do it in minutes with a brillo pad on a grinder. That has never been a priority for me. I prefer to concentrate on structurally and functionally sound. I have no interest in impressing anyone but the practical.
Thanks for posting these Smack. They make my point.
I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out below in the next post. Still no luck.
A friend sailed to New Zealand and back, with stock "yachty" style blocks. They had black anodized aluminium cheeks with stainless straps over them. The corrosion between the SS and the aluminium swelled the cheeks tight against the sheaves, causing them to freeze solid, in such a brief, one year trip. That is the kind of perfectionism Smack advocates. As long as it has a brand name on it, it must be perfect. My blocks have had no problems in decades . That is my definition of perfection, not decorative priorities over reliability. I still see those failed blocks for sale in yachty stores ,for high prices, for those "knuckleheads "gullible enough to judge marine hardware by the price tag and it's decorativeness. I see some lewmar blocks with 1/4 inch stainless shackles with 1/4 inch pins, and flimsy plastic cheeks , for $40 each.
How does the high price tag and brand name make plastic and tiny shackles stronger than the amount of metal holding my blocks together? How dose the tiny amount of stainless around the shackle pin get strengthened to more than the amount of aluminium in the beckets on my blocks, by adding a brand name and high price tag? They give the safe working load at 900 lbs, a fraction the strength of the half inch line going over it. I believe all blocks, cleats and mooring bitts should be stronger than the biggest line that will be used on them. That is simply good seamanship ( unlike what Smack advocates|)
You can easily make a strength comparision between my blocks and commercially made blocks . Just tie a loop of rope around a tree and the other end to the becket of one. Then tie another loop of half inch Dacron around the two blocks and tie the other becket to the back bumper of a car, with lots of slack . Then get in the car and put the pedal to the metal, and see which one breaks first. If your theory holds, then you believe that mine will break first, and you will be out 20 minutes and $2. So why don't you try it? Because you know full well that your commercially made block wont stand a hope in hell!
What is your theory on that? Or do you simply believe that mother nature is kinder, and more gentle, to materials which look like something out of a blister pack from a yachty store?
Didn't know mother nature was that consumer biased .
I’m still waiting for my BrentBlock so I can do the test he lays out above. So far - he hasn’t delivered.
You are absolutely right, plastic boats are much cheaper, if you are content to have nothing but apiece of plastic between you and any dangerous floating debris out there, nothing but a piece of plastic between you and sudden death for you and your crew( bad seamanship) Or if you are content with the leaky dampness of living Any steel boat designer can do a lot to reduce the time and money required , for anyone who doesn't want to risk his life, and that of his crew, in fragile plastic , and wishes to enjoy the hugely enhanced comfort and safety of a steel boat, by simply using my methods. I don't exactly keep them a dark trade secret. There is very little choice around here in used boats, for anyone wanting a good, affordable steel boat. Mine are usually the only show in town
I wonder why there’s not more competition? Maybe there's no market?
I spend as much time as I please, in a place where the consumer religious rich work all year to spend three weeks in. Then they all go home, to earn the money needed, to make payments on the kind of boats and gear you advocate, while I continue to cruise, enjoying all the now empty anchorages they have abandoned, to follow your advice. Been doing this since my mid 20's. Just spent the summer swimming, sailing in some good winds, fishing , eating ice cream and chicken burgers venison steak, wild plums and blackberries etc. etc., and sailing with some beautiful charming and intelligent young ladies, who keep coming back, year after year. Have nothing else on the agenda for the foreseeable future. Never had a bank debt . Never paid a penny of bank interest directly, in my life. I travel first class on space ship earth, in the best place on the planet, in the best time in human history. So don't get too concerned for my happiness. I wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet; I envy no one!
I do like to steer others toward the lifestyle I enjoy, and warn them about scammers trying to convince them that the pretentious "Yachty" ways, which keeps so many in debt, and tied to the dock , are their only option. I just have a low ," Just throw money at it " Bull****t threshold.
This is not grumpy, just a form of chess.
Yes the big ones you show are stronger ,uglier , and useless on a 36. The difference between mine and the yachty kind is ounces, about the weight of a couple of loonies in your pocket, or the big mac some have for breakfast; insignificant, and irrelevant.
Wait - I thought stronger and heavier were better?
What will be the price tag? What I object to is the suggestion that one has to be rich, or should wait until they are rich before cruising. I enjoy giving the not so rich the option of enjoying just as good a boats, from a practical point, as the rich, and enjoying cruising as much or more, without going to all the trouble of getting rich ( and thus increasing their environmental foot print exponentially) .
See the price tag and time requirements above.
Do a search under Silas Crosby the first brentboat to round Cape Horn, now cruising SE Alaska. He gives his
A plastic Hunter 49, Sequitur
, also rounded Cape Horn just fine. She didn’t sink. No one perished.
I pulled Dale Deforest's hull," Exit" together in two days . The steel arrived Thursday afternoon, and by 11 pm Friday, the hull was together, the transom in, and the stringers and all the bulwark caps on. You couldn't get out of the starting gate ,using a fully framed method, in that time. Sure a first timer would take longer ,but a lot less time than using the fully framed method.
longer will it take you
? Isn't that something you'd like to know before investing in the BrentBoat dream?
There is no way you could get a boat like that to stay head to the wind. But I wouldn't be cruising in a boat with that kind of transom anyway.
Notice in the photo that the guy is beating to windward. Maybe just a staged shot?
A handy trick for entering a harbour at night, is to find a light beam shining on the water, from the direction you want to go. Follow the light beam and if there were anything between you and it ,it would show up clearly.
Should you take navigation tips from the guy whose boats always end up on rocks and reefs?
Most of my steel hulls are as fair as any of yours, without the need for a drop of filler. Zero humps or bumps, Show me a fairer steel boat with zero filler. There are none.
And you call me a liar? Where does that leave your credibility?
Photo evidence to the contrary coming soon (see ad below).
Ever been to Christmas Island? After the nuclear tests of the 50s, they left the lagoon full of all kinds of garbage , jeeps, bulldozers, scrap metal , etc. etc. Its a real junk pile. So are the beaches in the lagoon.
Is this part of the BS South Pacific Tour?
I use mostly 6011 for uphand and overhead and 7024 for horizontal downhand
I use 316 stainless sticks for stainless and stainless to steel welding
I grind edges to 45 for full penetration, where needed. The chine and centreline etc are already open.
Flame spraying is an excellent way of eliminating paint job maintenance. I wrote extensively on this subject a few posts back.
Tried sheet foam, and no matter how hard I tried to get a sealed vapour barrier in front of it, it kept things soaking wet behind them with condensation
Sprayfoams is the only realistic long term solution I have found. Friends tried sheet foam and found it cost as much as spray foam by the time they were done, and a huge amount of work.
A friend priced the foaming kits now available in Home Hardware. They look like a couple of propane bottles that you hook up to a mixing nozzle .He said they cost about half the cost of having a foamer come in, and are easy to use.
One of my 36 footers caught fire in Frisco Bay .Dispite intense heat, the fire went only as far as where he had painted it with cheap latex paint. The fire would go no further. Couldnt get enough oxygen.
I try to keep my welds short, to minimize distortion, more in some places than others.
Any reasonably skilled amateur shouldn't have to hire anyone to build his boat. Used sails are far cheaper than the cost of materials, let alone time, so there are exceptions, but few.
With my book and plans, and Alex's video many have been building their own boats, with no problems. The book is pretty dog eared by the time they are done, but they found the answers they needed there.
I find my boats are easy to build right side up, and building one upside down would be a waste of time. Overhead welding is not that hard to learn, and I minimize it with my building methods. Integral tanks add a huge amount of structural strength to my boats, the tank top being a large horizontal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally. While that is irrelevant in my single keeler, it makes a good, very strong attachment point for my transverse keel webs, on my twin keelers. Without the tank top there, one would have to run the transverse supports to the centreline, making the centreline useless as as tankage. This would leave the only option for tankage, much higher up, raising the centre of gravity and reducing stability.
Thanks for finally asking real questions on this thread, to finally break the stream of adolescent drivel.
So who wants to build a BrentBoat?