Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats
[QUOTE=smackdaddy;1088439]Okay - the moment you've been waiting for. If one wants to discuss the con(s) of steel sailboats, one need look no further than this post.
What follows is the BS Yachts Marketing Programme
. It is the pitch from the Head of BS Yachts' Sales Department: BS himself.
Feel free to substantiate, defend, dissect, question, mock, or chortle at any of the following claims about BrentBoats by Brent himself. This is the condensed version of Swaintology.
If you are his target market...that is someone who doesn't know a whole lot about boats or steelwork, doesn't have a huge budget (i.e. - more than $50K cash), and just wants to go cruising - this is for you. Feel free to click the blue arrows by Brent's name to see his post in context and see the responses to it.
The bottom line is this...you, the "99%-er cruising wannabe" (Brent's words), have three choices:
1. Build your BrentBoat THEN go cruising with what you have left.
2. Buy a relatively expensive (compared to similar fiberglass boats) used BrentBoat that someone is trying to unload and go cruising immediately.
3. Buy a well-equipped, cruise-ready fiberglass boat for far less and go cruising immediately with more money in your pocket (but, according to Brent, living with the daily panic of being struck down by aggressive Fukushima Debris, logs, reefs or rocks - or the annoyance of having to pay attention to where you're going)
Brent often conflates the idea of "design" with the idea of "building" (hence, the numbers vs. experience angle) - so watch out for that. BUT, if you DO want to build your own BrentBoat, here's what you can expect (from Brent's own customers):
1. You'll likely spend a good deal more than $35K for a fully equipped BrentBoat. This is after you've already spent several hundred more for his plans, books and DVDs. (Oh and that's just for the boat - you'll need to factor in the costs of the build area, the expensive tools you'll need, the electronics you'll want to add, the utilities, etc.). So, let's up that figure to somewhere a good bit beyond $50K (the cruising budget we mentioned above).
2. You'll likely spend 3 years or more building this boat...before you can ever sail a single mile.
3. When Brent talks about how "perfect" his boat is after 30 years (i.e. - low maintenance requirements, dirt cheap equipment, etc.)...here's what he means by "perfect":
Notice the chipped paint, the rust, etc. And keep this in mind when you read through his maintenance claims below.
Now, an important sidenote as you review the BS Marketing Claims - this "Bob" character with whom Brent goes 'round is the rather legendary yacht designer, Robert Perry. Word is he's been kind of successful over the years and is somewhat respected by most sane people. Here's a hardcover book that outlines his 30+ year career:
So, without further adieu...I give you The BS Yachts Marketing Programme, designed to convince you, good 99%er-Cruiser-Wannabe, to buy or build a BrentBoat. Make up your own mind about integrity, veracity, and credibility. Where will you put your money?
What about Vendee and VOR boats that have done a pretty good job of doing just this around the entire earth?
I had one of these C27s. We always had too much sail up - and she did indeed give us a heavy tiller. But that was when we had too much sail up.
If I recall he's talking about a large Beneteau here. Slight kick or shifting gear? Seems there would be a lot more sinkings than we've hear of it this were case.
This indeed is a miracle for any boat anywhere in the world. Impressive.
You really should click the blue arrow by his name above and follow this argument he's having with Bob. It's quite entertaining. In a sailboat, if you roll past 180 degrees aren't you coming back up?
In light of all the numbers vs. experience arguments, this is one of my all time favorites.
Pay attention to these gear numbers and claims as it plays out below.
As you can see in this thread, I've offered to pay Brent $11+shipping for one of his $2 blocks so I can test it against a Garhauer (the test being exactly like he lays out below). He hasn't come through. But i'll keep trying.
I totally agree with this statement - which is why I don't think steel boats are the way to go for someone who "go sailing simply". Just my opinion.
Brent acknowledging his skewed math on the 183 debate after Bob kindly points out the flaws.
This was his post in a thread by someone who was proudly showing off their new Beneteau.
Bob's not familiar with this boat he supposedly designed. Brent can offer no evidence.
Many of the BrentBoats you'll see in photographs have battens. Do his own customers listen to him?
Put this in your maintenance spreadsheet - then look at the other maintenance claims below, coupled with the photos of what to expect with this level of maintenance.
Nobody wants to be a gullible mass. But seriously?
I've been on lots of Beneteaus. His friend is wrong.
Bob has no record of this boat. Brent can provide no evidence. See a trend?
Same as the above claim, but now with 12 fewer thru-hulls.
Most of the BS boats I've come across are for sale.
This is a very important point. And this is why it's so critical to understand where every penny of your cruising budget will go if you get into a BrentBoat. Yet, this is virtually impossible as there are no real numbers.
So I suppose what he's saying here is that he'll help you through the easy stuff for the first few days - then you're on your own when it gets hard?
See photos above.
Disregard all modern rudder design and engineering.
At the same time, he says safe navigation is not all that important below. So which is it?
I guess you need to decide what's more important to you...cruising or body armor.
Thanks for the fart, Brent.
See photos above to see what "good as the day I put it in" can mean.
This is a very, very good price for windvane steering. The question is, can YOU do it?
We're now at $300/year for total cost of ownership. How does that match up with the other claims?
This is to that guy Bob.
See photos for the meaning of "immaculate".
I'm still waiting on the block.
Do you really want a boat with "zero weather helm"? Follow this post for Bob's questions about this.
27 years for sheets. Conflicts with his halyard claims. And again, nothing breaks on his boat...a miracle in the boating world.
He gets his satisfaction out of helping the low income cruiser. Yet he won't tell you what it will really cost (even a hypothetical high-end that you could find ways to back off of) for you to get cruising? Why?
At least we start to get some vague idea of cost. Fiberglass boats are undoubtedly the cheapest, fastest way to get out there and cruise. If, however, you ARE one who likes to hit the odd rock, log or shipping container at night - you really should try to get some accurate time a cost estimates to see what you're getting into.
It sounds like these boats are only meant for cold water sailing. I like flip-flops, but you might prefer ugs.
Make sure your build site is near a scrapyard with boat stuff.
Starting to get some general idea of cost. But very little.
The boat on the Fijian reef that he is claiming as "Mine" - Nothin' Wong - he reverses himself and says is NOT his below when talking about Clive, the owner. Maybe part of this is the design vs. construction argument. But you wouldn't know it unless you were paying close attention to what he says. The Sleavin family remark, is, well, unfortunate.
Though these figures weren't quite accurate - it does at least give us a number to work off of.
This is the BS version of seamanship. It's a rare discipline.
200 might have been started - but there seem that there are very, very few of them out there actually cruising.
This is important when you're figuring costs. If you want to be below that $50K-plus total, you'll need to hit the dumpsters, and surplus shops, and try to score lots of free stuff. This, of course, will affect the time side of your plan (adding perhaps a few additional years before you can sail), but you WILL save money.
I guess he's telling you, interested customer, that budgets don't matter? You'll be fine as long as you're not stupid enough to pay retail? What do you think? And before you answer, remember he doesn't want you to be a gullible mass and just believe what the yacht designers and builders of today simply tell you.
You need to decide if you can do this on your boat.
I'm still waiting for one of his block so I can go all NASA on it.
Nothing on the Don Shore book. $20 for the Len Sherman book (10 times more than a BrentBlock). Ans as for "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman, $10 - and this is the guy Brent called a drunk? I'd rather have the block and save for cruising.
Compare with above and below. See photos.
A yacht designer doing extensive, real life testing.
It appears that Clive Hamman has more cruising experience than Brent - and disagrees with Brent's maintenance claims.
Still trying to figure out the actual time and money requirements (worst-case) for one of Brent's boats. So far he's ignoring the question.
Sounds like you should buy a fiberglass boat first, go cruising and have fun. Then if you get scared of Fukushima Debris and want to hit some reefs, rocks, and logs, you should sell the plastic boat and build one of Brent's. I think that's reasonable.
Hull and decks should cost $9K and take a week to get done. Can you do it for that?
Now THIS one is COMPLETELY bogus!
$350 for plans, $54 for DVDs, $20 for the book, and the odd wife-beater beating for free. Is that $424 well spent in getting you toward your cruising goal? If not, at least some cops were fired and wife-beaters beat.
It is true that the market for steel boats seems incredibly small.
More conversation with highly respected designer.
More on the Sleavins.
Tragedy Ends Family's Sailing Adventure : Accident: Their yacht is hit off New Zealand. The Santa Clarita woman is saved but husband, children are lost at sea. - Los Angeles Times
I think it's pretty poor taste to claim something like this.
+++++++++++++Brent claims Jeff_H said something idiotic, when it was actually Brent that said it.++++++++++
Now THAT I agree with, Brent. Who on earth would even conceive the preposterous idea of using wood for a gun barrel? Ludicrous!
Oh, yeah, it was you.
See above numbers (only derived by customer accounts, not from the actual designer/builder) then re-read this post. $34K for designs from a world-renown designer, or $424-plus-~$35K and several years. Either way, you're still not in the water.
See above about screwing. Also, I've offered him $33/hr for the blocks. No luck yet.
How you make a few extra bucks around the dojo is no business of ours.
The Sleavins again. Along with the Fukushima Debris, are you seeing the marketing angle here? What is the main reason to buy/build a BrentBoat?
Definitely one of BS’s most outlandish claims.
I think the answer to the 99%-er cruiser wannabe should be pretty clear by now.
See numbers above and below. Who getting screwed?
Is it $9K or $3500? We keep going back and forth.
Yet you have "air-tight" hatches and ports? I will grant Brent that bolted down stuff on fiberglass does typically require work every 5-10 years...maybe less if it's being sailed full time. But I don't know many people who lose sleep over this. It's not that big of a deal.
Again, this is great advice as far as I'm concerned.
If these boats are rare, how does that square with the 200 boats built claim above? I guess you can see why Brent has no competition as he claimed earlier.
Note that Brent now says he didn’t design Clive’s boat - yet this is one of the main examples he uses for how strong “his boats” are.
Which is it?
Bob Perry: $34,000. Brent Swain: $30,424 (see site, tools, equipment, utilities, etc. below). NOW you're ready to start building the boat you chose.
Clive mentions on his website that maintaining a steel boat is time consuming and very expensive. And his boat is a craphole.
Remember, Clive has as much or more cruising experience in a steel boat than Brent does. Who are you going to believe?
Brent implies a customer is lying on his blog.
These figures are 30 years old or so. They have absolutely no relevance to today...unless you think you can do this too.
Can you meet this schedule for your own BrentBoat? If not, why?
If you didn’t finish your BrentBoat - are you stupid, a dope smoker, or a drunk?
Your first 3 steps: find a build site, spends thousands on materials, and “acquire tools”...cost: tens of thousands...plus $350 for the plans, $54 for the DVS, and $20 for the book. I’d say the total to this point is easily nearing the $34K you’d pay Bob Perry for a set of plans...and you STILL haven't even STARTED your BrentBoat yet. (See “screwing the cruiser” above.)
How many BrentBoaters have finished their boat with this budget? Did any of you care about a budget beforehand? (See above.)
Another run at the cost and schedule you can expect when you build your BrentBoat:
That $346 if you’re counting. Maybe you can start your budget spreadsheet with these figures?
Now he’s backtracking on calling his customer a liar. That’s good.
Yes. Such crap must be challenged.
RKJ won the race. Moitissier went crazy. Clear lesson: Steel boats drive people insane and make them losers?
This is the way Brent refuses to post a weight study for his design. It’s Steve’s writing that’s the problem.
Make sure to weigh how much you like your pot and booze before becoming one of Brent’s object lessons. And if you're short on money and want more cruising time (see “cheap fiberglass boats” above).
Then why is Brent checking his interior hull under the foam?
Can you meet this timeline and budget? Is that really what it will take you to do it?
Brent is temporarily banned for insulting Bob Perry's wife...'
This definitely doesn't square with A.D.'s letter on Latitude 38 when he claims:
This had nothing to do with status quo or greed. Sailors don't insult other sailors' family. Ever. Yet Brent does , and is banned for it - and you defend him by blaming the forum?
I apologize for insulting a sailor’s wife by calling her fat and ugly. But it’s his fault for making me do it.
This is the engineering method used on BrentBoats.
Calculators are redundant.
Another method of calcluating your costs when building a BrentBoat...and not smoking dope.
And more budget numbers...if you only had the number for that farmer. Otherwise, it will be quite a bit more expensive for you in the real world.
You only need a bottom job every 40-50 years?
Just remember, Brent doesn’t have the experience Clive has. And Clive disagrees with Brent. What are you going to believe? Customer or salesman?
Brent's stanchions are only 34" tall. That's 2" below what's considered a safe handrail height around the world. So be careful on a BrentBoat.
So at the specific point of puncture (a hole in the hull which will kill you), you’re saying that there is 4M pounds of protection? That’s pretty damn safe.
Does this mean don’t build a BrentBoat unless he’s willing to help you? And unless you’re willing to stop drinking beer and getting baked?
I really don’t know what to say on this one.
Aren’t we supposed to be sailing
Whose money are we talking about here? Your $350? Or the BrentBoat builder’s $50K plus?
More BS strength calculations:
No math necessary.
Will you have to go through “years of sitting out in an open cockpit in the driving rain” before you understand the value of some kind of shelter (pilot house, bimini, etc.)? I know experience trumps numbers - but really? Wouldn't it be easier to rely on those who actually know there are better ways to do things?
Wait - don’t you singlehand?
They’re expensive (if available at all) books to buy if you’re trying to build a cruising kitty. I think you'd be much better off putting that money into your boat.
Personal attack? Wait - didn’t you read Lat38? Isn’t it fact that Brent is only banned by elitist forums who are trying to protect the yachting industry when he merely goes against the “status quo”? Seeing a pattern A.D.?
So cruiser, do you want to cruise or do you want to build?
Epoxy tar with wasabi. Got it.
Brent, you really should read Bob's book. I think you'll "hear of" many such innovations.
More invitations than you can count? See the math skills above. As for potential customers interested in steel boats - check out the BS Yachts customer service commitment.
BS boat hold its value? Or will you have to sell it for scrap?
Since we’ve only found evidence of maybe 10-12 BrentBoats out of the 200 you claim - I suppose we can conclude that the other 188 rusted through and were lost at sea without a trace?
Gullible Disciples? Don’t forget the dope smokers. Pot’s expensive!
See numbers above.
See weight discussions above for this amusing turnabout.
More mere “challenging of the status quo”?
Does this go back to the 4M pound strength of steel?
+++++++++Here is my first post on the blocks after I finally found the photos.++++++++++++++
Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about
I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".
I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out (tying them to a tree and cranking on them with truck). Still no luck.
I’m still waiting for my BrentBlock so I can do the test he lays out above. So far - he hasn’t delivered.
I wonder why there’s not more competition? Maybe there's no market?
Wait - I thought stronger and heavier were better?
See the price tag and time requirements above.
A plastic Hunter 49, Sequitur, also rounded Cape Horn just fine. She didn’t sink. No one perished.
longer will it take you? Is that something you'd like to know before investing in the BrentBoat dream?
Notice in the photo that the guy is beating to windward. Maybe just a staged shot?
Should you take navigation tips from the guy whose boats always end up on rocks and reefs?
Photo evidence to the contrary coming soon.
Is this part of the BS South Pacific Tour?
Wow. That's a ton of hands on, experience based information from me, and only adolescent smart ass sarcasm from you, with absolutely noting useful or constructive from you. I don't see any rust in those photos,. So where does that leave your credibility. You asked for photos of my 29 year old paint job. You posted them, showing zero rust or corrosion.
Sure a paint job would look far better if my boat were a marina queen like most of Bobs rarely leaving the dock except for a two week summer vacation and the odd weekend cruise. Then back to work to pay for it all.
Those guys have all headed back to work from here leaving paradise free and empty for those of us who live more resourcefully .
I am a demonstration of how freely one can cruise, semi retired since my mid 20s, by following my own advice.
So if you DON'T want to have the same degree of freedom, then you definitely DON'T want to follow my way of doing things.
So tell us smack . How much full time cruising have you done since your mid 20s?
You say your way can accomplish more? Your life disproves it!.
I stand by the posts I have made above
The Bob Perry design my friend bought has 24 inch high stanchions