Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 119 - SailNet Community
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post #1181 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Makes me cry. Thanks.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


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post #1182 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Was that the time Kai Nui (Polynesian for "Big Food") tried to tell me that leaving the treadmill and going cruising was "immoral." and everyone should feel morally obliged to live a lifestyle which would take several , more planets to sustain ? Telling cruisers that their aspirations are morally wrong, is not way to make friends in the cruising crowd ,(except for the not too bright among them.)

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #1183 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Joms:
I sit here and let BS trash the boat that I been living on for almost 40 years. I choose the facts from Brent, and represent the rich side.
There you go Bob, your own, personal," Smack" style quote. More to come. You endorsed the tactic!

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post #1184 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Was that the time Kai Nui (Polynesian for "Big Food") tried to tell me that leaving the treadmill and going cruising was "immoral." and everyone should feel morally obliged to live a lifestyle which would take several , more planets to sustain ? Telling cruisers that their aspirations are morally wrong, is not way to make friends in the cruising crowd ,(except for the not too bright among them.)


Those are you words, Brent. Not his. You certainly don't know him very well.

Ralph

S/V FUGUE
HUNTER 36
KEMAH, TX

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Last edited by RTB; 09-19-2013 at 09:03 PM.
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post #1185 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Smack doesn't like my welded down stainless handrails. He prefers the bolted down teak of his Catalina 27; thinks they are stronger and less likely to leak. I vang my mainsail to my hand rails . Try that with the teak ones on a Catalina.
He claims that 36 inches are the minimum height for lifelines. How many stock Catalina 27s have 36 inch lifelines ? How many Perry designs have 36inch lifelines? Not many. The only one I measured was 24 inches ,super thin walled stainless, cantilevered off 3 or 4 tiny bolts on the deck. Smack claims my sch 40 stainless type 316 pipe stanchions, 34 inches of the deck, supported by welding on the bottom and welded to a solid sch 40 pipe on top , supported top and bottom, are not adequate, not as adequate as his 24 inch extruded tinfoil stanchions, supported bottom only by 3 or 4 tiny bolts and plastic coated ( Crevice corrosion factory) stainless top life line!
He doesn't like my 3/8th inch pad eye on my boom bale , but prefers a block with a 3/16th shackle. He thinks the 3/16th shackle is stronger, because it has a trendy brand name on it.
And some want to rely on his judgement !

When the first issues of Sail Magazine came out, they had all kinds of tank test results, including info on rudders. A spade rudder with nothing ahead of it, had a much shallower stall angle than one with a skeg in front of it. They found that, with the bottom raked slightly forward , it was far les inclined to draw air down it, and more likely to draw water slightly up it . Extreme rake drastically reduced a rudder's effectiveness, but a slight forward rake was beneficial. Even the slightest rake aft quickly reduced the rudders effectiveness, pulling air down and causing cavitation. Donald Street wrote extensively about this . He asked many designers why they raked their rudders aft and the only answer they would give him was "It looks fast and sells boats."
Smack wants you to believe that water has changed its ways since then, in order to be "Trendy."
Smack wants you to believe that a rudder supported both ends, off a strong skeg is not stronger than a fig leaf rudder supported by the top end only!
Structural strength and hydrodynamics are not the only criteria for rudders. I have run thru some pretty heavy kelp beds in the north, which would leave Bob's fig leaf rudders carrying a huge ball of kelp, in seconds . I have ran over heavy lines, which would have left a boat with fig leaf rudder fouled and dead in the water. Try that off a lee shore on a dark night, not something anyone like Smack or Bob, with minimal cruising experience, would comprehend. A cruising boat skeg should be designed to slip over lines and kelp, with out fouling either.
A single keel gives some protection from floating debris, but with twin keels there is nothing in front of the rudder, except, hopefully, a strong skeg. Without a skeg, any hard object would wipe out a fig leaf rudder instantly.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-19-2013 at 09:57 PM.
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post #1186 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
You might want to read that quote once again, slowly this time.
It's not complimentary to you.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


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post #1187 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Makes me cry. Thanks.
Bob, if you meant the Wierd Mob clip the entire movie is on You Tube in two parts.

Andrew B

“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett, Nation

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTB View Post
Was that the time Kai Nui (Polynesian for "Big Food") tried to tell me that leaving the treadmill and going cruising was "immoral." and everyone should feel morally obliged to live a lifestyle which would take several , more planets to sustain ? Telling cruisers that their aspirations are morally wrong, is not way to make friends in the cruising crowd ,(except for the not too bright among them.)


Those are you words, Brent. Not his. You certainly don't know him very well.

Ralph
That was the drift of his attacks on my lifestyle, along with his suggestion that we should get our moral guidance from biker gangs. He considers riding a motorbike "Rebellion", while living the designated, cookie cutter, urban lifestyle.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-19-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Oh yeah! I forgot about that thread. As you can see, that's when I started really wondering about Brent's claims...even after creding the dude. His environmental footprint tirade was one of my favorites (that his boats far better for the environment than wood or GRP).



Too many years of "consumerism" to remember how and where the steel for his boats comes from?











Thanks for the tiny footprints China.
On small ,short drop in the bucket of environmental impact, eliminates the need for many a car, a house and all the other environmental foot prints over a life time , resulting in a much tinier overall environmental foot print over a lifetime.
All in those photos was not done for the building of one 36 footer, nor all the 38 I have done. Check out the tar sands to see where fibrglass comes from.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-19-2013 at 10:16 PM.
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post #1190 of 5317 Old 09-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Smack doesn't like my welded down stainless handrails. He prefers the bolted down teak of his Catalina 27; thinks they are stronger and less likely to leak. I vang my mainsail to my hand rails . Try that with the teak ones on a Catalina.
He claims that 36 inches are the minimum height for lifelines. How many stock Catalina 27s have 36 inch lifelines ? How many Perry designs have 36inch lifelines? Not many. The only one I measured was 24 inches ,super thin walled stainless, cantilevered off 3 or 4 tiny bolts on the deck. Smack claims my sch 40 stainless type 316 pipe stanchions, 34 inches of the deck, supported by welding on the bottom and welded to a solid sch 40 pipe on top , supported top and bottom, are not adequate, not as adequate as his 24 inch extruded tinfoil stanchions, supported bottom only by 3 or 4 tiny bolts and plastic coated ( Crevice corrosion factory) stainless top life line!
He doesn't like my 3/8th inch pad eye on my boom bale , but prefers a block with a 3/16th shackle. He thinks the 3/16th shackle is stronger, because it has a trendy brand name on it.
And some want to rely on his judgement !

When the first issues of Sail Magazine came out, they had all kinds of tank test results, including info on rudders. A spade rudder with nothing ahead of it, had a much shallower stall angle than one with a skeg in front of it. They found that, with the bottom raked slightly forward , it was far les inclined to draw air down it, and more likely to draw water slightly up it . Extreme rake drastically reduced a rudder's effectiveness, but a slight forward rake was beneficial. Even the slightest rake aft quickly reduced the rudders effectiveness, pulling air down and causing cavitation. Donald Street wrote extensively about this . He asked many designers why they raked their rudders aft and the only answer they would give him was "It looks fast and sells boats."
Smack wants you to believe that water has changed its ways since then, in order to be "Trendy."
Smack wants you to believe that a rudder supported both ends, off a strong skeg is not stronger than a fig leaf rudder supported by the top end only!
Structural strength and hydrodynamics are not the only criteria for rudders. I have run thru some pretty heavy kelp beds in the north, which would leave Bob's fig leaf rudders carrying a huge ball of kelp, in seconds . I have ran over heavy lines, which would have left a boat with fig leaf rudder fouled and dead in the water. Try that off a lee shore on a dark night, not something anyone like Smack or Bob, with minimal cruising experience, would comprehend. A cruising boat skeg should be designed to slip over lines and kelp, with out fouling either.
A single keel gives some protection from floating debris, but with twin keels there is nothing in front of the rudder, except, hopefully, a strong skeg. Without a skeg, any hard object would wipe out a fig leaf rudder instantly.
I want you to believe whatever you think is right. So never take anything Brent says I say as gospel.

Here's the place to start figuring it all out for yourself - with Brent's own words (you can even check each quote to see that I didn't change a word he said...just clipped out his point and presented it):

BS Yachts Marketing Program

Keep trying Brent. It is fun to watch you trying to get out from under your own words.


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Last edited by smackdaddy; 09-19-2013 at 10:35 PM.
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