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  #1221  
Old 09-21-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
This thread has been an ..... interesting ..... read, but not for the reasons I had hoped for. (Smack, that was quite possibly the longest and most entertaining "marketing" post I've ever seen!) I was hoping to learn something about steel boats and their qualities but that dream died many pages ago. I DO NOT believe for one second that steel is infallible. Brent's claims about shrugging off reefs and rocks with only scratched paint are ridiculous. I was on board the USS Carl Vinson back in '90 going through a seriously major storm when the ship slammed into a wave. After the damage control crews cleaned up the mess, we all got to see the damage caused to the foc'sle. The main beam in the stem was buckled and plate metal bulkheads much thicker than the skin of a Brentboat were dented from the where the caps to the hawse pipes blew into the space and ricocheted around, all from slamming into a wave. So Brent, I don't believe your claims one bit.

I think steel has it's place as a material of choice but I don't believe it is the ONLY choice. I've seen much advice given and several books mention that steel hulls are a good choice for high latitude sailing but what about the more temperate areas? I'm not ready to discard a steel boat just yet but from everything I've heard, read, and experienced, it seems to require much more attention to corrosion than other materials. I've also read that condensation can be a problem unless it is insulated. Are they typically insulated only from the waterline up or are they also insulated below the waterline? It seems to me that sprayed insulation would make inspection and repairs problematic, especially while underway.
Check out the law of mechanical similitude for a comparison between large boats and small ones in terms of the relative strengths .The bigger the boat the more marginal the strength becomes. Small steel boats are grossly over strength, super tankers marginal. An example would be the test I suggested to Smack. Take a tin can, sealed ( a condensed milk can with the holes soldered shut would work) Stand waist deep in water and try making a hole in it with an aluminium baseball bat . Now imagine a similar sized bat to can ratio on a super tanker. You wont make a hole in the can, no matter how hard you try, but the super tanker hit with a much larger bat that itself, would break up quickly. A small steel sailboat can pound on a lee shore for weeks without serious damage , but a super tanker in dry dock will break in half if the supports are not perfect. Shipyard workers can confirm this.
That is how the law of mechanical similitude works.
I have zero condensation inside my hull, despite living aboard her full time for 29 years. Spray foam eliminates it completely. It is however very important o heavily epoxy the inside, before spray foaming. Foam does not protect it reliably. Many commercially made boats ( Foulkes Fehr, Amazon ) have zero epoxy under the y foam, and rust from the inside out , sometimes rather quickly. Anywhere I have dug out sprayfoam, in my heavily epoxied interior , to install thru hulls, deck conduits, etc., the steel under it has been in perfect condition.
Spray foam should be carried to the floor boards. Some fish boats were foamed right down into the bilges and the foam acted like wicks, drawing bilge water high up, causing serious corrosion. Hulls and keels made out of only 1/8th plate doen't help any. You need a place for the water to drain out of the foam. Leave the foam out a foot either side of the centreline, and in any engine compartment .
On deck, the biggest maintenance problems are paint chipping of outside corners, Flat surfaces are far less problematic. If you have corrosion problems on flat surfaces, the paint is not thick enough or the steel under it was not clean enough ,before painting. Trimming al outside corners On a steel boat with stainless, can reduce maintenance by 80%
For marina queens, and "occasional use" boats , fibreglass is far less maintenance, than a steel boat. For full time, hard use, where a plastic boat would have cleats worked loose, things breaking , and deck leaks to constantly re-seal , workboat priorities prevail , and a steel boat becomes far less maintenance.
Bob Perry, an indisputable expert on fibreglass, knows next to nothing about steel boats. Nor does Smack. Neither has any hands on experience building, , cruising in, or maintaining a steel boat over many decades .
Best get your steel boat info from those who have built or cruised in one successfully, over decades. Otherwise you are getting only misinformation spread by plastic boat salesmen.
To see what a small boat can take , check out the" Gringo "photos on cruisers forum. That kind of impact would have cut a much larger boat in half.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-21-2013 at 07:46 PM.
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  #1222  
Old 09-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Above post makes sense but seems to speak more for building in aluminum. In large commercial vessels the weight of the hull built in steel has less of an impact on performance. As size decreases this becomes a greater concern and the strength may be viewed as overkill. In short one is incurring unnecessary weight with need for greater sail area and larger engines. With aluminum strength,puncture resistance,weight are more in keeping with size and actual use. Although galvanic concerns exist issues with coating do not. Hence, one reads of the extensive use of aluminum but not not steel by Alaskans for their skiffs and high latitudes sailors for their hulls. Unpainted aluminum still allows a very aesethically pleasing hull.
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  #1223  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob the cartoons are a hoot. Put a bunch in a kids book and that locomotive and his friends won't be smiling so much.
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  #1224  
Old 09-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Above post makes sense but seems to speak more for building in aluminum. In large commercial vessels the weight of the hull built in steel has less of an impact on performance. As size decreases this becomes a greater concern and the strength may be viewed as overkill. In short one is incurring unnecessary weight with need for greater sail area and larger engines. With aluminum strength,puncture resistance,weight are more in keeping with size and actual use. Although galvanic concerns exist issues with coating do not. Hence, one reads of the extensive use of aluminum but not not steel by Alaskans for their skiffs and high latitudes sailors for their hulls. Unpainted aluminum still allows a very aesethically pleasing hull.
Unpainted aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to fry eggs on. I had to paint the back of my aluminium dinghy white inside, so it wouldn't burn my feet. A couple I met in Tonga, in an unpainted aluminium boat, said it took them til2 AM to get to sleep because of the heat buildup during the day. It's extremely difficult to find effective antifouling paint which wont have electrolysis problems with aluminium. Aluminium welding is only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal while steel is 100%. Its far easier to screws up an aluminium weld , steel is far more forgiving and far less expensive. When the steel for my 36 was $3800 the aluminium was $20,000.
Most 36 ft steel boats are lighter than many plastic hulls, such as Westsails, Cape George cutters, Herreschoff Nerias, Ingrids, etc.
Steel is more corrosion prone above the waterline , where you can see it. and easily deal with it. Aluminium is more corrosion prone below the waterline , and happens more quickly, where it can go along way before you notice it.
Some boats have been built in steel with aluminium cabin tops, which while being trickier, can save weight up high. I just replaced a plywood cabin top with aluminium, on a steel boat this spring . Worked out well.
Steel is far more abrasion resistant on coral or rocks should you go aground and is far more floating container resistant. You can build an engine driven portable welder for steel for under $50. Aluminium welding is far more complex .
Check out the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups ) for more info.
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  #1225  
Old 09-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Gonna hijack the thread given we're talking about dodgers and wheel houses. Love the looks of the PSC ketch Bob did. But wonder at what size do you think a wheel house,hard dodger or center cockpit be done with out it looking like a wedding cake motorboat. Took a real long look at the H.R.s before choosing the outbound. Thought until you got to size beyond my price range boat didn't flow. Its a great boat though. Similarly had opportunity to get a Shannon Aegean 50 but it needed too much work. Thought that was size where you could pull off hardtop dodger and center cockpit.
Nothing like making a mockup of your wheelhouse on a boat or model, before building the final version. What looks good in a drawing can look a lot worse in 3D.
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  #1226  
Old 09-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

It's an automatic in my office. I'm happy to provide examples.
I look forward to other examples from any other designer out there.

I work hard to provide to provide these design tools to my clients.
Attached Thumbnails
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Last edited by bobperry; 09-22-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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  #1227  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonic View Post
I have been watching this thread with interest it seems people think any steely under 40 feet wont sail.When I was a kid my parents bought a 37 foot steel yacht round bilge fin keeler we sailed 10 000 miles in it and it sailed really well reaching at 8 knots on a good day.A lovely yacht only problem was the wooden decks wet beds on passage every time.last year my father bought a 32 foot steel kuiper a dutch yacht with a big rig and bowsprit,I have an old quarter tonne racing yacht and if I dont keep my hull clean and boat light I cant catch him.I think possibly some are really overbuilt and that gives the rest of them a bad name.They arent all slow by a long shot.
What makes some overweight is misplaced priorities, and redundant structural steel, such as transverse framing , etc. The steel would be far more useful in plate thickness than in transverse framing with thinner plate to compensate. I have seen a Tahiti ketch with 3,000 lbs of framing , and 1/8th inch hull plate . Without the framing , 3/8th plate would weigh the same and be a lot tougher ,and more corrosion resistant. With only 1/8th plate against such hard points , the framing increases the odds of holing.
Before putting in more steel, one should look for something which is structurally doing the same thing.
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  #1228  
Old 09-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Out:
You have no idea how many people have suggested that.
But I am a wee bit busy these days with new designs. I have a brand new custom design job. Husband and wife, skipper and cook off a very big, UK steel yacht. They cringe when I mention steel. So we will do alu and call it good. I had them up here at my crab shack all day today. I wanted to watch the SA but business is business. I wanted to watch the Seahawks. But busienss is business.

The cartoons I do for fun, as Christmas gifts for my friends. Sometimes I am contracted to do a cartoon for someone. MISS ALISON is a cartoon I did on commission. I charge $2,500 for a cartoon. It is very hard to make something look so easy. The cartoons are surprisingly time consuming. Besides,,,,it's art.
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Last edited by bobperry; 09-22-2013 at 09:41 PM.
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  #1229  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hey - I never had any credibility to begin with! THAT is the funniest part.

There is one basic difference at the bottom of this whole "tinkling sesh"...Bob Perry doesn't "force" his views down people's throats...insulting them simply for thinking something different.

Just follow this thing back to the beginning in the Wolfenzee thread and you'll see where Brent started in on Bob...and never let up. To expect Bob not to respond to insults like that is ridiculous.

Let me just put it this way...Brent has been banished from virtually every web forum he's ever been on for exactly the same behavior you've seen here. Bob hasn't.

Do the math.
The first disagreement I had with Bob was when he stated that any sailboat with a wheelhouse was a motor sailer even those without a motor of any kind.
The first one on this site was when he attacked Jeff for suggesting an outboard rudder , and proposed something inboard, far less structurally sound and simple , complicating the hell out of self steering.
One of the reasons I was banned from cruisers forums was for telling people that they are under no legal obligation in Canada to open the hatch for any water cop coming alongside . On that site, advocating sucking up to those who violate your civil rights is permitted , telling people what their right are is considered too political . Right wing posts are encouraged and not considered political . It's a cop and cop wanabe site. When a moderator, who doesn't cruise the BC coast, and doesn't even live here, started giving false information about cruising the BC coast in winter , something I have been doing for over 40 years, I corrected his disinformation ,which didn't make me popular. The contempt of A-holes is the sincerest form of flattery. I wasn't going to let any cruiser suffer the cost of disinformation , in winter.
Bob, to his credit, was also banned from that site. Smack lies again( and again and again, etc. etc.)
Cruisers are being screwed up all too often by disinformation (much from inexperienced arm chair experts like Smack)
No, I don't feel guilty about correcting it, and defending the interests of cruisers.
Bob said my boats are ugly and lumpy. Anyone can check out the origamiboats site, and the photos section, and see some of the best looking steel cruising boats anywhere, fair as any, from bare steel to finished, no filler necessary, quickly proving Bob's comments a deliberate lie .
So from that point on, why would anyone believe anything else he has to say?
The 50 thru hulls on a Beneteau was typo on my part. Bob is no stranger to typos . Anyone can cheaply buy one of the white plastic thru hulls, hit it with a hammer, to check out the point I make. The only other two I have been banned from, by the same person, in the same day , was a moderator advocating such flimsy plastic thru hulls or complex mild steel ones impossible to maintain, , when I pointed out that stainless
pipe nipples welded in have given me no problems for decades and dozens of boats . I was told the reason for me being banned was for disagreeing with people. No one was banned for disagreeing with me. Friends who checked out that site said, they saw absolutely nothing which would remotely justify me being banned on either of those sites. Subsequently I was invited by Sully to participate in his site, due to my posts( cruising.stuffiminto.com)
Banned from three, by ego maniac moderators is not banned from all. I have participated on many others, I just got invited, by the owner, to participate on Sealegacy.com ,an interesting site, which has gone viral.
On Cruising.stuffiminto.com, Smack lies again ( and again and again and again) So why would anyone keep believing him on any issue? He even admitted he has no credibility!
Bob, with Smack's invitation followed me to cruising.stuffiminto.com. to continue their childish harrassment campaign against me, and they were quickly called on it.

I don't have the time for all the sites I'm signed up on.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-22-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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  #1230  
Old 09-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sorry but you invent things I never did say. You have a problem with that. I wish you would stop doing it.

Yes, your boats are ugly and lumpy. I did say that. They stand as mute testiment.

But I want to go watch this TV show on Captain Cook. I have no wish to trade strupid personal attacks with you. You will have to attack yourself tonight.
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