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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#528 ·
Your boats are freaking ugly, slow, unsafe floating turds.
Mark, normally I enjoy your posts, but this one has just harshed my morning mellow...
Brent's boats apparently do appeal to some people because he has sold quite a few of them, and collectively they have logged hundreds of thousands of miles in waters all over the world. I would not mind owning one of them as I do like bilge keel boats and steel. I have a lot of respect for Brent as a designer and sailor - compared to him, I know squat. Obviously Bob Perry is a legend, and I would not get in the middle of these two guys talking shop.
 
#530 ·
Perhaps that is true and I stand corrected - I have not been following this discussion in every detail and I'm sure I missed stuff.
I thought Brent has not only been building these boats but also designing them. IMO if you build off someone else's plans, you are a builder, but if you design and build from scratch, you can claim to be a designer as well.
 
#532 ·
Marty:
You missed a great party. We had around 40 boats represented and present. Some people drive to the Rendezvous. One guy drove from Montana. The food was great and the music was good and the party went well into the night. Our "guest star" this year was Bob Berg, the real "Baba". I think we had one of each of the Baba's there including the pilot house 40 and a rare Baba 40 ketch. WILD HORSES was there so we had one alu boat at the Rendezvous but no steel boats. One of my newest custom design clients showed up with his wife and had a great time talking to the owners of my boats. I know BS thinks they are "foolish yachties' but many of them have done some serious passage making and are proud of their boats. We had an Islander 28 there that had attended the very first Rendevous over 30 years ago. We even had people show up who had previously owned a Perry boat but now they just come for the party. All in all it was a very satisfying weekend for me and my family including Violet who enjoyed herself.
 
#535 · (Edited)
Mark:
Thanks for posting that pic of the alu Norseman. That guy was a real artist in alu. He was one of the most skilled "home builders" I have ever worked with. The steel boat was built by Amazon and has many miles on it. But it is a true
"yacht" and a far cry from the BS boats aesthetically.

We live on a beach where all the new houses are custom builds. Almost all of these are custom designs. Ours is a custom design by Chuck Schiff. I did all the interior details but I do not call myself "the designer" of my home. When I talk to other beach residents with sustom homes I often here,"I designed it." Then I ask, "Did you do the drawings?" Typically they say no but they did some sketches. If they didn't do the working drawings then I would not soncider them the designer of their house.

So is BS a designer? If he does his won drawings and builds to those drawings then I would call him the "designer" and the builder obviously. He must not be very proud of his drawings as I have never seen any posted here. My drawings are works of art and many, many boats have been built from them and are currently being built from them. I post my drawings with pride and challenge anyone calling themselves a "yacht designer" to post better drawings. In my office the design process is taken very seriously. I want the quality of the drawings to reflect the quality of the design work AND the quality I expect in the finished product.
 

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#639 · (Edited)
A friend went to see an amazon being built. The builder told him the boat was ready for spray foaming and the foamer was coming that night. There was nothing but a light coat of primer inside, and no welding inside. He could see almost an eighth of an inch into the welds, with the outside mostly ground off. There was roughly the thickness of a beer can holding the seams together. My friend built one of mine, and sailed her from BC to England.
Another friend, Eric, ordered an amazon, bare hull and decks, and insisted on no primer. He wanted to see the state of the bare steel hull. They primed it anyway . When he sandblasted her he found the primer was there to hide very thick layers of filler.
A Kiwi told me his friend ordered an Amazon, and specified longitudinals be tacked with a 2 inch tack every 6 inches. When he scraped out some foam, he found they had a half inch tack every 2 feet. He persued the builder with a court summons, to sue him. When he caught up with him, and served the summons , the shop declared bankruptcy, and that was the last amazon ever built.
Those are the kind of boats which impress Bob. I don't build boats in a way which impresses Bob. I build them properly.
What causes distortion? Welding ! How do you avoid distortion on a boat with transverse framing? Don't weld it well. Guaranteed to impress those who don't understand steel boats.
 
#539 ·
I'd have to agree that BS is a designer too. Now comes the how skilled vs others. Some other things that can get in the way of what one wants to say is a sliding scale of designers......well that can get into a deep disCUSSion shall we say.........like a WELL!

Like myself, I do have a landscape design degree. I can not legally call myself an architect, but in my field, ANYONE< can call themself a designer, even if they do not have any formal training at a school. Which frankly I do find a bit annoying.......but that is another story.

As far as teh difference between BS and BP, not sure if BP with the schooling etc he has can call himself an architect or not, but at least in my field, he would be if he has a 4 yr degree, with having taken a state test, and some in house training etc. I do not see that BS has this style of training per say.

I've at least described how "I" look at this issue from the field I have trained in.

Marty
 
#540 ·
Sure, anyone can be a "designer" and just as easy there can be "good designers" and 'bad designers". Just writing "designer" next to your name does not make you a good designer. I don't give a rat's patooty what you call me. I like Bob. I am a classical music fan so "Maestro" is fun and flattering. I am recognized by my peers as a good designer and that's all that matters to me. My designs speak for themselves and they speak loudly and often. Being surrounded, like I was this weekend, by a marina full of happy owners is prooof that I have done my job well. I don't believe writing something after your name proves anything other than you can write.
 
#543 · (Edited)
Bob, it ain't all about you.

AIUI, to call yourself a "Professional Engineer" in most (all?) countries you need to not only have trained as one but also be registered with the local Engineering board, whoever that might be. Likewise, to call yourself a "Naval Architect" you need to be a paid-up member of the Institute of Naval Architecture (in the US) or the R.I.N.A. (in the UK) or similar institutions in other countries, and there's a number reasons for doing this:

  1. It advertises that you are willing to be accountable to your industry peers in the work that you do,
  2. It means you commit to update yourself in the latest methods and techniques as passed down by that Institute,
  3. It gives your clients the satisfaction of knowing there is an authority they can go to when something you put on paper heads to the bottom, and
  4. It gives you some measure of protection when the unthinkable happens..
So, you're right: writing "Designer" or even "Naval Architect" after your name doesn't mean you are a "good designer" - or a "bad designer" either - but being able to legitimately advertise the fact means your clients should feel more comfortable about forking out mountains of $$$ for your work since they are better protected against something going wrong. ..and in some cases (like the Engineers one) it's required by law.

Hope that helps. :)
 
#541 ·
Well

IMHP there are three

Design

Build

Engineering

And i believe this is were it runs off the track as i do a lot of design and build BUT depending on what it is i am building i have fairly limited engineering skills :)

For example when i hang a new crane up in the building i have to pay a PE to sign off that the existing beams will live with the new load









One of things that makes it possible for me to design and build a bicycle is that the tubes are sold pre=engineered as sets for specific uses and rider weights



I also build some fancy machine controls that tell why there not running qand even send me a email when there unhappy BUT you sure as heck could not use one on and elevator or traffic single ;)
 
#542 ·
Tom:
I have used Ivan Erdevicki for almost all my engineering for about ten years. He lives in Vancouver part of the time and his home country of Monte ***** most of the time. Ivan, pronounced "Eeee-von" is a quality guy and a very clever designer himself, an ex-professional water polo player. You should visit his web site. He has done military boats for the Israeli navy. I have also work recently with Tim Nolan and Jim Franken from Port townsend on the Sliver Project. I draw the structure I want and how I want things shaped and the engineer tells me how much laminate to use where. It's a good way to work.

I had a tun in four years ago with the Washington State Board of Licensing. They sent me a terse letter saying that I did not have the qualifications to do what I was doing. I thought, "****ski! Now you tell me." Then I sat down and wrote them a concise and equally terse reply outlining what I had been doing for the past 35 years. I got a very nice letter back that said, basically, "Never mind." I felt pretty good about that.
 
#544 · (Edited)
No Hart:
That doesn't help much. Technically you are correct but you don't address the "some can and some can't regardless of initials after the name issue and it's huge.

I once had a U of Mich graduate naval architect come and apply for a job in my office. He already had business cards printed out saying he was a naval architect. He was a nice guy so I thought I'd give him a try. I sat him down at a drawing board and watched for 2.5 days while he struggled mightily and got nowhere with the re-design of a Tayana 37 interior. I was patient but I finally had to saty to him, "You can't do it can you?" and he said no he coudn't. But he was a licensed naval architect. He just couldn't design a boat. Want more stories like that? I have a bunch.

Hartley: This weekend at times it seemed to be all about me and I enjoyed it. I am very comfortable in that environment that I created. I do my best to try to make it all about the boat owners. It's very simple, it's about the boats and their owners. I think we strike a decent balance. From time to time a little idolitry creeps into it but my wife is always there and as she once said to me, "I think I am going to throw up."

A man once said to me, "Imagine you had never lived. Now look around this harbor and think of what changes that would have meant to these people."
 
#545 · (Edited)
No Hart:
That doesn't help much. Technically you are correct but you don't address the "some can and some can't regardless of initials after the name issue and it's huge.

I once had a U of Mich graduate naval architect come and apply for a job in my office. He already had business cards printed out saying he was a naval architect. He was a nice guy so I thought I'd give him a try. I sat him down at a drawing board and watched for 2.5 days while he struggled mightily and got nowhere with the re-design of a Tayana 37 interior. I was patient but I finally had to saty to him, "You can't do it can you?" and he said no he coudn't. But he was a licensed naval architect. He just couldn't design a boat. Want more stories like that? I have a bunch.
Bob, sorry if you think I'm surprised - 'cause I'm not. I, personally, could give you a bunch of very similar stories about engineering graduates.

{RANT} What you speak of comes down to two things: (a) education and (b) experience - and with the demise of industry apprenticeships and cadetships, etc. etc. that's what remains: Highly-qualified inexperience. And it ain't just the "yacht designing" industry that is having those issues - it's in engineering, health, law, accountancy and a host of other professions as well. That's the world we live in - and "Institutes" world-wide have done themselves a disservice by kowtowing to the populists and allowing it to get that bad. :(
** /RANT}

Anyway, enough of the doom and gloom:

If you're interested, the way I deal with it is to hire raw, green, graduates straight out of Uni (untainted by the workplace, you might say), test their aptitude for the task, put their qualifications on the shelf (or the wastepaper basket, if more appropriate) and set them to work for a year or so under somebody experienced - an "unofficial cadetship", if you will. That takes time and costs $$ and you get no thanks for it - but it works. :)

Hartley: This weekend at times it seemed to be all about me and I enjoyed it. I am very comfortable in that environment that I created. I do my best to try to make it all about the boat owners. It's very simple, it's about the boats and their owners. I think we strike a decent balance. From time to time a little idolitry creeps into it but my wife is always there and as she once said to me, "I think I am going to throw up."

A man once said to me, "Imagine you had never lived. Now look around this harbor and think of what changes that would have meant to these people."
I'm really glad that the weekend was a success, Bob - you deserve it! You are also very fortunate to have a wife who can gently cap your ego when required.. many don't and have destroyed their own reputation in the process.

By all means, keep doing what you're doing.. but if you wrote to the relevant Institute I, for one, wouldn't be surprised in the least if they offered you an Honorary Membership right away, simply based on your demonstrated qualifications from The School Of Hard Knocks. Something else to decorate the mantelpiece. :cool:
 
#546 ·
Cam,

I've noticed the same thing. BUT, what is also harder currently on a local level, is MANY places are wanting one to have 2-5 yrs experience, and for MANY like one of my daughters trying to get a job out of college, getting that experience is hard, as no one wants to hire them! Danged if one does sometimes, danged if you do!

Locally here where BP and I am, your comments re the how you get to be an engineer/architect etc seems to be equal in how you go about it.

marty
 
#547 · (Edited)
Cam,

I've noticed the same thing. BUT, what is also harder currently on a local level, is MANY places are wanting one to have 2-5 yrs experience, and for MANY like one of my daughters trying to get a job out of college, getting that experience is hard, as no one wants to hire them! Danged if one does sometimes, danged if you do!
Hi Marty, yeah, it's no different over here.

What you're seeing in "wanting 2-5yrs experience" is companies not willing to pay the high cost/risk of the "cadetship" I mentioned above and hoping (not unreasonably) to pick up someone already "pre-trained" by someone else! Fact is, with big business not offering cadetships like they used to, if it takes 2yrs to train someone green for the job, then the only available candidates that will fit their "2-5" position will be those who didn't like their last job... and so the cycle continues.

Anyway: Knowing full well that the company in question will have to do some level of "re-training" to the new environment no matter who they get, IMHO, it's a rough ride (think, deep end of the swimming pool) but the way to approach these people is for your daughter to apply anyway, and at the interview confess her inexperience, countered by a willingness to learn quickly on the job and a willingness to commence on reduced pay until fully trained (for, say, a year, with a performance review at the end of the year).

That should perk the prospective employer's interest because what they really want, but haven't asked for, is someone who (a) knows what they're doing (is no idiot) and is willing to learn fast (aptitude) and (b) isn't going to cost them a fortune to re-train (the cost), only to have them leave a year later (the risk). It's a 2-way street.

Try that. :)

..with apologies for adding to the significant thread drift.
 
#548 ·
Cam,

I do agree that is what has to happen, re with new recruits to a degree. I've had a few that in reality, needed more than the paper work showed. I've even been there done that at times with new products I need to install etc. Its something we all need to know, ie we all have to learn it at some point in time, include the almighty BP! much less us nobody's!LOLOL

marty
 
#549 ·
If I came hard at BS it is because he seems to be saying, often, that Bob, who has literally thousands of boats on the water is unqualified to design a steel boat. Bob has done boats in every material available, or Bob's boats have been done in them, whichever you want to call it, I even found one very nice looking Bob Perry design in ferrocement. BS is probably an alright guy, in person, just like most of us, the things we type are easy to take as being more harsh than we mean them to be. Me personally, I get a lot of grief from certain elitists for being from Texas, but I just figure it is because they need someone to pick on to make them feel better and I generally let it go.

BS boats could be okay boats, with a lot of help, but since Brent seems intent on turning off people who truly could help him, he gets little to none. Bob does not need me to take up for him, I just like his designs. I think they are very nice, and from the ones I have seen in person they are very well laid out, from the few photos of the BS boats I have seen only one so far has been anywhere near okay looking. I have to say that they do look more or less sturdy, but just not very pretty. I like beautiful boats, which is why I like some of Bob's designs more than others, and Bob probably does as well. I also really like most of Paul Kettenburg's designs, a lot of Roger Long's, and many others, especially the ones done in wood. It is my right to like what I like, and you each have the same right, and like it or not, more people have liked Bob's boats than those of Brent, and since people seem to have voted in an overwhelming way with their wallets on that issue, I would say BS could learn a lot if he were not so adamant that his way is the only way.

We all tend to do that from time to time, myself included, but I have done more listening and paying attention than I have done my way or not at all. The best thing I could say to BS is that if he would just stop trying to tell people that his boats will pretty much survive a direct hit from a moon being dropped on them without getting scratched up, and would listen to people with the been there done thats to be able to tell him things that would actually help him, he would sell a lot more boats. Of course so far that has not happened, and I doubt it will, so I will continue to have fun poking at him, because it is about as entertaining as watching the cat chase the laser pointer, almost, and the cat needs a rest now and then.
 
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#552 ·
Me personally, I get a lot of grief from certain elitists for being from Texas, but I just figure it is because they need someone to pick on to make them feel better and I generally let it go.
No, I call you Tex because it is easier than typing your full username.
I could call you tranny if you like.
I thought you were out of line and I called you on it. Bob Perry, boat designer and Brent Swain boat builder have both taken unattractive and petty shots at each other, and y'know, that's their right- they have the hulls on the water to back their sniping, to a certain extent. It ain't pretty, but it is informative.
You? You have never built or designed, or even owned a boat, and you take cheap shots at a guy because Bob made it okay? Sorry, in my opinion you don't get the limited pass that Mr. Perry gets, because a) you don't have the resume to back your play, and b) BS certainly has not missed an opportunity to snipe at Bob. If that constitutes picking on you, then you have the choice to wallow in your victimhood or rethink what you type.

Regarding "elitism"- if it is elitist to not take cheap shots at steel boat builders, advocates, homebuilders and those whose designs are aesthetically challenged, then this cheap, small boat owner/sailor is proud to wear the label. Just as the world needs Bobs, the world needs Brents as well.
 
#550 ·
I have had interns from all over the world. I have even had some of the live in my house while they did their internships. Some of these interns have gone on to very succesful carreers in yacht design, Mark Mills in the UK, Tim Kernan in So Cal, Paul Bieker in Seattle. I hired several interns to come back and work for me. This was a good way to find help as I already knew exactly what they knew and what they could do. I was never very concerned about degrees although I did prefer people with a degree as it showed me they could at least get one job done. I have been very lucky over the years to have had some very skilfull help in the office.
 
#553 ·
This is getting very silly.
"Elitism"?

I see an equal amount of elitism on both sides. At least most of the grp sailors are not telling the steel sailors they are stupid but BS is consistent in his claim that if you don't do it his way you are "foolish" his word. I most certainly don't think steel boat sailors as a group are "foolish". I do think BS is a fool for his elitist attitudes.

blj: I am not looking for a "pass" from you. I'm a big boy and I can take care of myself. Save your pass for someone who needs it.
 
#554 ·
I ran across a question on a another forum that is obvious - but interesting.

If the steel origami method is all that, why aren't there legitimate builders turning these boats out? If the construction is that sound and the cost point that low - there should be some attractive economy there right?

Is it because people just don't want steel boats?
 
#562 · (Edited)
Mark, aesthetics is a difficult thing to debate. You don't like Brent's boats. Fine. You like Bob's boats. Who doesn't? What's not to like? You probably don't find working craft like fishing boats very attractive either. I do. I love boats in general and I like to evaluate every design based on its intended use. I live in a country with an incredible variety of traditional working craft. There are dugout canoes made from the single trunks of the Guapuruvu tree, probably hundreds of different traditional fishing boat designs in wood ranging from small shrimpers and long liners to 150 ft sailing schooners. They are all beautiful to me. All designed with a specific purpose in mind and honed to that task. To me, Brent's boats are similar in concept. They are purpose-built designs for cruising. Some are built to work boat standards and some are more refined.
 
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