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  #1321  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
. A simple inside epoxy job wold have eliminated that problem.
Isn't epoxy a kind of plastic?
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  #1322  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Smack has just been banned from another site, when it became obvious to the moderator that his only reason for being there was to attack every word I posted , and any suggestion of innovation , of any kind.

They said the internet, once with huge potential for advancement in any field , was being wrecked , and rendered useless as a discussion of potential advancements, by a gang of trolls, who attack every thing said, regardless of content.
Sound familiar?
Brent - "attacked every word you posted"? Dude, all I did was post your own words from this compilation:

BS Yachts Marketing Program

What's interesting is how you see that - posting the truth - as some kind of attack.

I don't have to attack a thing. I just have to remind people what you yourself have said. It is very effective.
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  #1323  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by AlaskaMC View Post
How can you go wrong with that combination!


Here is one of my girls and my dog. There is a choc lab running around in there somewhere too.

This is our old living room, dining room, brewing room etc. Lived there for years. But, I guess we were just trying to keep up with people we didn't like.

The Portuguese Water Dog is really a neat breed. Are they into water as much as the name would suggest?
That's quite a handsome dog you have there...

  #1324  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The only one on that list with hands on experience in building in steel was Withotz. The result ? He designed some very good, good looking hard chine, and practical steel boats.
I asked you what your long term cruising in a steel boat was , and your experience in building and maintaining a steel boat over the long term were, and you had no answer.
I worked in Charlie Wittholz's office. Charlie knew steel and wood really well. He actually preferred wood. Most of the boats he owned were wood. That said his last boat was steel. Bought her cheaply when they could not find a buyer for her.

Jeff
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  #1325  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I worked in Charlie Wittholz's office. Charlie knew steel and wood really well. He actually preferred wood. Most of the boats he owned were wood. That said his last boat was steel. Bought her cheaply when they could not find a buyer for her.

Jeff
Ooooohhh...
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  #1326  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Yeah, I don't recall Charlie ever building a steel boat himself. He probably didn't know what he was doing. But somehow he did manage some very beautiful steel designs. Charlie had "the eye" big time. I got to sit next to him at dinner in Annapolis one night. That was an honor.

Steve:
Is that your dog? It's a beaut.
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  #1327  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
No Brent I AM an expert on ALL THINGS NAUTICAL. No question about that. All things.

What a foolish this to say. But you can't help yourself. You have to attack. I'm sure a lot of the people here will greatly appreciating you pointing that out to them.

I just design boats and I'm happy that people keep asking me to design more. I like my job. I'm pretty darn good at it so it seems.

Let's have some fun. I'll make a list of all the famous designers who neverv went world cruising. Maybe you guys can add to the list because I think I'llm stop when my typing finger gets tired.

Designers who never went world cruising:
Olin Stephens
Bruce Farr
Laurie Davidson
K. AAge Nielsen
Bill Atkin
Bill Garden
Charles Withotz
Charley Gilmer
Bill Lapworth
Doug Peterson
Bruce King
Ron Holland
Mark Mills
Gary Mull
Carl Schumacher
Bill Tripp
Skip Calkins
Carl Alberg
Bill Shaw
Chuck Paine
Ted Brewer
Dick Carter
Jim Taylor
German Frers
Ted Hood
L. Francis Herreshoff
Dieter Empacher
Uffa Fox

I'll add my own name to the list because its a list I am very proud to be on. Although I suppose Brent has no respect for any of those named. If you like go ahead and add to the list.

Lets see:
Bob Perry
Ben Seaborn.
Ed Monk
George Cuthbertson
George Cassian
Bill Dixon
Britt Chance
Dave Pedrick
Alan Payne
Ed Dubois
Charley Morgan
Yves-Marie Tanton
Peter Norlin
Knud Riemers

etc.
I'll assume that none of them went all the way around but I know of a LOT of offshore experience in that bunch - O.S. won the Transatlantic race in his self designed Dorade when he was in his twenties. Holland and Peterson sailed to Tahiti on Improbable etc. etc.

Hardly lacking in experience.
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  #1328  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent, no-one here is attacking steel in any way other than to say it's slow for small boats, which it is. The only thing they are "attacking" is your messianic single-mindedness towards it as being the ONLY material safe for offshore sailing.
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  #1329  
Old 10-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jon:
I was after designers who had done offshore cruising. Of course Olin did the Trans-At in DORADE. I know that. I'm sure several of them had offshore experience. I have offshore experience. What I was looking for was designers who had spent years cruising and not working at the design trade. I think I have done it and I now have even more names to add. I did not include Crealock because as I recall he did spend some time cruising. I'm not sure a delivery ride qualifies.

But none of that is the point I was trying to make. The point was, that there are many ways to make your name as a designer. One of them may be going off cruising for a couple of years. But fact is that few if any of the designers I listed actually did that. Most of them worked in design offices and raced a lot. They, most of them, learned the yacht design trade by working for other designers.

You'd have to be a fool to think that any of us lacked "experience". The proof is in the product.

Got to go add a few more names to my list.
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Last edited by bobperry; 10-01-2013 at 12:51 AM.
  #1330  
Old 10-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob,

I think you point is correct that many of the most venerable designers of offshore cruising boats never built a boat with their own hands and were not distance cruisers themselves, and yet many of their designs have proven to be wonderful offshore cruisers which done significant long distance voyages. Off the top of my head I would add to the list of venerable cruising boat designers who never built a boat with their own hands or went distance cruising: (I don't consider offshore races and deliveries to be distance cruising)
John Alden
Howard Chappelle
Ralph Wiley
John G. Hanna
Phillip Rhodes
Albert Strange
Arthur Robb
Ralph E. Winslow
Starling Burgess
George Stadel III
Winthrop Warner

As I suspect you would agree, for the most part, the yacht designers who have become venerable, chose to design boats because they love to design yachts and have a talent for it. They may enjoy sailing, and they may learn from sailing their own boats and talking with people who have sailed their designs, but in reality, thier prime motavation in life is that they enjoy designing boats and so they have chosen to make yacht design their full time careers. Reaching the pinnacle in any profession requires focus and an internal drive to become proficient at that field of study. With caring designers, each new design benefits from the lessons learned from prior efforts. They become dilligent students and critics of their own work and in doing so advance thier art. By and large, it is only human nature amoungst creative people to do so. In the discussions Brent mentions making changes to his designs over time based experiences with his earlier designs. This trial and correction process only serves to improve one's work over time.

My sense is in the case of the majority of vernerables above, their idea of a great life was to spend their time designing and sailing casually, rather than divert their efforts and squander their limited time on earth by going walkabout or building a boat with their own hands. This was their choice and so for them this was the right decision. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a shore-based designer if that is what you chose any more than there is any thing wrong with spending much of your life sailing long distances and dabbling in yacht design along the way. But I am uncomfortable with the idea of criticizing these greats because they chose to focus in their profession and hone their skills rather than go off and spend years of their life cruising or building boats.

Jeff
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