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  #1591  
Old 10-10-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Good post Jeff.

Keep in mind that the lighter boat most probably started with a higher SA/D to begin with. Then 30,000 lb. boat would probably have a SA/D in the 16.5 to 17.00 range. While the light boat could reasonably have a SA/D around 20 to 21, maybe even higher.. Not necessarily but most probably. So when loaded the lighter boat may still have the higher SA/D.
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  #1592  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Good post Jeff.

Keep in mind that the lighter boat most probably started with a higher SA/D to begin with. Not necessarily but most probably. So when loaded the lighter boat may still have the higher SA/D.
That is an important point. One of my lessons from the design process for Wolf's boat, was that there came a point where I could not realistically get enough sail area onto the heavier boat (shorter for its displacement) to maintain close to the SA/D of the longer boat. I suppose that it may have been possible to add bowsprits and boomkins and stretch the sail plan horizontally, but that added sail area would have been pretty inefficient compared to that on the longer boat.

Jeff
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  #1593  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff:
Exactly.

Ther comes a point with a heavy boat where you can't just keep rainign "I" to get a higher SA/D. The result of this is too big a rig over too small a deck platform and too high a center of pressure over what is typically a relatively high VCG.

A good eaxmple of this is Ted Hood's Little Harbor series. These boats were noted for good performance depsite their heavy displ but they had SA/D's down below 16.00 in many cases.
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  #1594  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Jeff:
Exactly.

There comes a point with a heavy boat where you can't just keep adding "I" to get a higher SA/D. The result of this is too big a rig over too small a deck platform and too high a center of pressure over what is typically a relatively high VCG.

A good eaxmple of this is Ted Hood's Little Harbor series. These boats were noted for good performance depsite their heavy displ but they had SA/D's down below 16.00 in many cases.
The Little Harbors were very interesting boats. To me they are a study in minimizing drag while carrying a deceptively large amount of sail area.

If you see one out of the water they are a study in how to reduce wetted surface. While they have a fair amount of deadrise (which is needed since they effectively have internal ballast), they are otherwise almost cylindrical sections. It really is a very strange hull form but it works in terms of minimal drag. It comes at the price of being a little tender and quite rolly.

But the sail plans are the really deceptive part. These boats had huge foretriangles and moderately small mainsails. While their SA/D (with the 100% foretriangle) was nothing to write home about, put a 155% genoa or a spinnaker on these boats and they carried a very large amount of sail area. That works great for beating a racing rule, but dragging those huge headsails around the rig is miserable to short-hand or cruise with.

Jeff
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  #1595  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff:'
I think it was those large fore triangles on the Little Harbors and the large LP gennys that let them get away with low base SA/D's. Right, not fun to cruise with. But they sure were popular.
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  #1596  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff, seems to me your saying boat weigh closer to the center of the earth is better than to the deck for vessels of the same displacement.

best wishes
Britt
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Jeff, seems to me your saying boat with its weight closer to the center of the earth is better than having its weight on the deck for vessels of the same displacement. (editted by Jeff H)

best wishes
Britt
Something more like that....
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  #1598  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Ok, I can;t stand it, but the thread is called "the pros and cons". So here is some more cons.

The keel went on the FRANCIS LEE today. The boat was weighed in a travel lift. Extensive effort and care was taken to isnure the keel was bolted on in line fore and aft and in line vertically. This is far from a "good enough" or as the Chinese would say it, "chubadoa" effort.

We weighed the boayt in the travel lift. I am always suspect of travel lifts. I believe accurate displacements can only be taken from freeboards of the boat. But with admitted hypocracy this weight came in perfect so I am inclined to think it is correct. We have a rudder, a rig, some fuel, some water and some misc items to add along with a crew and we should be spot on my weight calculation.

This is a beauitiful boat. It's not a lumpy, bumpy unfair thing that happens to float. This is a boat designed for a very specific purpose for a very specific client.

In my last email from the client it was clear he is very happy.

Forgive me if I gloat but I have worked hard, a lot of people have worked hard, to produce an end like this. I'm not sure "gloating" is the right word. But it's that feeling you get when everything is coming together just the way you planned it.
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  #1599  
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Thumbs up Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

chuckle....Bob, I know that feeling you describe. One always wonders if things will come out like you wish and better than what the customer expects but when it does it gives one a warm glow and feeling of euphoric relief at a job well done
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Holy crap that's a cool boat! Kimbo - you are gonna be pimpin'.

I've got an observation here. I think what I've learned from this thread more than anything is that building boats (especially steel boats) is really pretty easy. It's the design that's hard. There's a hell of a lot involved and you have to actually know what you're doing. You can't just bluster your way through it and hope those that don't know any better don't catch on.

It's not the material. It's the mind. And I'm sure Brent would agree with that. It's a whole different league.
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