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  #1601  
Old 10-10-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Euphoric relief?
Yeah, I think that describes it perfectly.
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  #1602  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and the heavier designed boat will be floating much closer to her original lines. The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design.
I guess I understand what you are trying to say but you are saying it the wrong way. Has Bob pointed out on boats with a similar water-plane a given load will have the same effect in what regards inches of immersion and that has nothing to do with the weight of the boats... but if a boat weights twice the weight of another those inches are a much smaller proportion regarding the total immersed area, close to 50%, and that will translate in a bigger tolerance in what regards that load. I mean the boat will be less affected by that load.

For instance imagine a very light carbon racer that has the same waterplane of an heavy steel voyage boat that weights 7 times more (and has a hugely bigger immersed area).

Both boats will be immersed the same number of inches by the same big load, let's say half the weight of the racing boat but half of the weight of the racing boat is just 1/14 times of the weight of the steel boat and while the racer will be very sluggish carrying a load that corresponds to half of its weight (and represent a big perceptual amount of his immersed surface) the heavy still boat will have perceptually a small increase in his total immersed area, one that will corresponds to 1/14 of its own weight.

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Paulo
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo:
I agree with you. But I have a caveat:
" half the weight of the racing boat"? For a reasonable load?

I'd prefer to try to keep the examples and comparison closer to reality.

I don't think that is a realistic load Paulo. You expect a 15,000 lb. 40'er to take on a 7.500 lb. load? Can't see that happening. I don't think trying to compare extreme examples of types ever works. The heavy boat in your example was probably a pig to begin with and will still be a pig when it's loaded.

I know you know that. I was simply asking for a cogent explanation of Brent's post. To my understanding of yacht design principles it was clearly wrong. That is beyond argument.

That's all.
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Last edited by bobperry; 10-10-2013 at 11:20 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob,

are those pics at CSR? have a long day driving on the other side of the pond, wish I could get there and see how she looks. Maybe next week...........

Marty
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Marty:
Yes those pics are from CSR. Go buy. Take a look.
Then drive north and spend some time at the shack.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I go south a lot mroe than north. Altho may try to get to anacortes wed for an off shore sail use seminar. Not sure I will ever use the info, but what the hay, it may inspire me to try the vic/maui which is the target user group........At the Ullman loft.

Should be able to get by CSR sooner than later........if Kathy lets me in........lolol
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob, I think we are saying the same thing but you misunderstood me:

"I agree with you. But I have a caveat:
" half the weight of the racing boat"? For a reasonable load?"


Yes that is the point half the weight as a reasonable load on a sail boat is ridiculous but, if another (stell) boat is many times heavier and has the same water-plane it will go down as much inches in the waterline if we charge it with half the weight of the racing boat, but if that boat is 7 times heavier that load will only correspond to 1/14 of its weight and will be probably an acceptable load.

I did not have mentioned any size for the boats and 7 times the weight is an exaggeration but what is true for that proportion is still true (in a lesser way) for a smaller proportion.

Let's come to the reality:

A modern top racing sailboat with 46ft weights about 5000kg and a steel passage-maker with the same lenght can weight about 21000kg (for example the Ted Brewer Kanter Atlantic 46). That means that the steel boat is 4.2 times heavier. let's imagine that they have the same water-plane and what I am saying is that even if they will go down at the waterline the same number of inches with a load of 2500kg, that would clearly be an impossible load to the 5T boat while it would be possible on the 21T boat, I mean at least with the boats sailing the way they were designed to sail.

I think that was what Brent was trying to say even if he said that the wrong way.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

This is not a debate.
Brent said exactly what he was trying to say. What he actually did say was factually wrong, incorrect, at odds with the elements of yacht design. I don't care to guess what he was trying to say.

I understand perfectly what you are trying to illustrate with your examples.
I'd prefer to use more typical boat examples. In my example I used two boats I know. And in an effort to keep it real, the owner of the light boat wouldn't even dream of loading his boat the way his heavier neighbor does.

I agree with you that there is more stowage space for the extra gear on the heavy boat. But changes in performance involve a lot more variables than introduced here so I not going to speculate on that. For the sake of argument I would say generally the overloaded light boat is still the better performer. It had a far higher SA/D to begin with and probably has a higher SA/D loaded. It is also, generally speaking, the better overall , more modern design. But again, too many variables with this to speculate.
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Last edited by bobperry; 10-11-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
This is not a debate.
Brent said exactly what he was trying to say. What he actually did say was factually wrong, incorrect, at odds with the elements of yacht design. I don't care to guess what he was trying to say.

I understand perfectly what you are trying to illustrate with your examples.
I'd prefer to use more typical boat examples. In my example I used two boats I know. And in an effort to keep it real, the owner of the light boat wouldn't even dream of loading his boat the way his heavier neighbor does.

I agree with you that there is more stowage space for the extra gear on the heavy boat. But changes in performance involve a lot more variables than introduced here so I not going to speculate on that. For the sake of argument I would say generally the overloaded light boat is still the better performer. It had a far higher SA/D to begin with and probably has a higher SA/D loaded. It is also, generally speaking, the better overall , more modern design. But again, too many variables with this to speculate.
If modern designs are so much superior to the older ones how come its the older ones like the west sail 32, after forty years, that are still considered the best blue water boats by so many? To be honest Bob, I love the interiors of the new boats but am still very much attracted to the solid strength of vessels like the west sail 32. You just don't hear stories of the new bill Johnson special taking on the perfect storm and winning. You would think if the new boats were so much better the news media would be full of accounts of amazing survival stories preformed by these craft. But when one hits the news it always seemed to be one of the older designs.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Survival stories are the result of bad planning.
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