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  #1611  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Modern materials and methods are proven stronger. But it does not mean they are always used.

Well designed modern vessels are generally faster, more weatherly and often can avoid bad weather.

But good voyage planning and prudence are still the best way to avoid becoming a news story.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
Survival stories are the result of bad planning.
chuckle....not sure that its possible to consider everything when making plans cause there are such things as rouge waves, tsunami's, etc. forces beyond our control that can only be dealt with when they happen not planned for.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by kimbottles View Post
Modern materials and methods are proven stronger. But it does not mean they are always used.

Well designed modern vessels are generally faster, more weatherly and often can avoid bad weather.

But good voyage planning and prudence are still the best way to avoid becoming a news story.
I understand that. But you use words like generally, often in regards to modern designs but we can safely use words like, they have proven they can, they survived, they will Words that leave no doubt as to their proven capabilities when describing craft like the ws32.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Who is Bill Johnson?

Floyd:
You are confusing two separate elements, design and build. They can be connect but oiften in regards to modern mass produced boats they are not. While the design may be first rate the build quality may be third rate as a fucntion of the builder making choices to save money. In the same was a very poor design can be beautifully built.

There is nothing stopping a builder from taking an older, traditional design and doing very poor job building it. If you are looking for "magic" in the old design keep, looking. I take each boat in individually and judge them that way. Please explain to me in detail what you mean by "these craft"? If you will. I have no idea what "these craft" means.

I kind of think the premise of your question needs to be rethought.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Who is Bill Johnson?

Floyd:
You are confusing two separate elements, design and build. They can be connect but oiften in regards to modern mass produced boats they are not. While the design may be first rate the build quality may be third rate as a fucntion of the builder making choices to save money. In the same was a very poor design can be beautifully built.

There is nothing stopping a builder from taking an older, traditional design and doing very poor job building it. If you are looking for "magic" in the old design keep, looking. I take each boat in individually and judge them that way. Please explain to me in detail what you mean by "these craft"? If you will. I have no idea what "these craft" means.

I kind of think the premise of your question needs to be rethought.
Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. New designs of current manufacture may claim to be superior but where's the proof?
bill Johnson was a ficticious character that builds the latest and greatest blue water sailing vessels. I believe I used," those craft", in reference to these modern superior designs that that have yet to survive the perfect storm or gain a reputation for getting their crews home safe.
Just seems to me if these new designs are so very good then I would see news clips once in awhile about the miraculous survival of a bill Johnson yacht, but I don't. Does that mean they just disappear or that sailors just don't have enough confidence in them to venture out except in the most favorable conditions.

Please understand my knowledge and experience with sail is almost zero and I aplojize for my poor wording of my posts. I'm learning a lot from reading these forums and wish to thank you all.
Best wishes

Britt
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Having seen way to much of my Cal 29 during the refit and seeing the WIDE RANGE of glass thickness in the hull i fell like Cal/Jenson had a pretty good handle on material strength

The boat has certainly passed the test of time and most of my work was necessary due to poor upkeep and collisions and the 40 something years of continues service


Kim

I think you would certainly agree that in bicycles for example the advances in low weight have come at a massive trade-off in price and are much more fragile in any kind of crash



My 2012 Cyclocross bike only has a Carbon fork BUT the next models up are from 200% to 400% ++ more money with 1000 something dollars per pound for weight reduction
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. ...
Used as examples of the best bluewater cruisers by whom? By Naval Architects? By top sailors? or by sailors that sail in old boats and many times talk more than do buewater or offshore sailing?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

" its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made,"

I'm not buying this. I need you to be specific. I consider the Valiant 40 to be one of the best cruising boats ever built and I sure as hell wouldn't lump it in with the Westsail. I do consider the Westsail one of the very best production offshore boats of all time. But I don't think that this just spreads by contact or association to every old traditional designs. Some were great boats in their time and some were not, in any time. I don't generalize.

"Just seems to me if these new designs are so very good then I would see news clips once in awhile about the miraculous survival of a bill Johnson yacht, but I don't."

Ok, allow me to be a smart ass for a moment. Maybe that's because the owners of the modern better performing boats are smarter and don't get caught out in survival situations.

Or, (less smart ass) the modern better performing boat is able to sail it's way out of those situations and not require survival tactics. The ability to go to weather well can be a life saver.

I still find this argument rife with generalities that make it irrelevant.

Oh, that Bill Johnson.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. New designs of current manufacture may claim to be superior but where's the proof?

Please understand my knowledge and experience with sail is almost zero and I aplojize for my poor wording of my posts. I'm learning a lot from reading these forums and wish to thank you all.
Best wishes

Britt
Britt, with all due respect, for the most part amongst knowledgeable sailors and cruisers, few would still say that the old Westsail 32's are still the best of the blue water cruisers made. They were good boats in their day, and if your goal is to go small and simple, they still may be a good choice for some folks. But there has been a century of design and seaworthiness research since the basic design was penned by Atkins.

If you take a long view of yacht design history, there has been a progressive understanding of what makes a seaworthy boat, a boat with a comfortable motion, an easily handled boat, and so on. In each generation, there have been better and worse type forms. In Atkin's day, the 'Eric', from which the Westsail derived, was a super design given the state of art materials and methods. The reason that boats like the Westsails and Ingrids are still revered is that they were spectacularly good distance cruisers as compared to the boats that people like Adlard Coles was sailing and writing about.

And there is no doubt that there were periods in yacht design history where the run of the mill boat was a pretty lousy design to take offshore. But in almost all periods there have been cruising designs which have advanced the collective understanding of what makes a good offshore cruiser.

You say, "Please understand my knowledge and experience with sail is almost zero." There is nothing wrong with that, we all started somewhere. But whether you know it or not, you are debating with Bob Perry, who is the designer whose Valiant design progressed cruising yacht thinking a giant leap past the thinking which generated the Eric and Ingrid. Bob's Tayana 37, out Ingrid-ed the Ingrid, meaning it started from the same basic 19th century Colin Archer design concepts as the Ingrid but tweaked tweaked the design for the better as only a designer who lived 70 years later could.

But as good as Bob's Valiant 40 and Tayana 37 were in their day, it has been roughly 40 years since those designs first made waves. And I doubt that Bob would disagree that there has been a lot learned even in those 40 years and that if given a similar brief today, those designs would not look as they did. And the new designs would be more seaworthy, faster, easier to handle, have a better motion, but equally as sturdy, capable of carrying supplies, and bringing its crew back home.

These 40 years have been amazing in terms of what yacht designers and theorsists have learned about motion and seaworthiness, structural loading and the behavior of small boats underway. There has been a giant leap forward in terms of the design tools which exist. There have been huge advances in the materials and methods which are readily available. And collectively these have allowed inventive advances in the ways to make boats work better than they ever have in the past.

And so while not all new boats take advanage of these lessons, and its easy to point at some modern coastal cruiser and to try to make a case that a modern coastal cruiser is not as good a boat as some purpose built offshore cruiser from the past, as someone who has sailed for over 50 years on boat designs that date from the late 1880's through comparatively modern boats, I can tell you that comparing designs purposefully developed for the same specific purposes but from each period of time, the newer designs are truly safer, faster, more easily handled boats to sail in all conditions.

And that is the point being made.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 10-11-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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  #1620  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have learned a lot in 40 years Jeff. When I started out I thought we, my fellow sailors and I, were all, going to go on this adventure of learning together. Then one day I realized that there were a lot of people not keeping up. I guess it was a stupid assumption of mine that made me think we'd all progress together. But if you look around at some of the marvelous,well rounded boats being produced today (just look at Paulo's thread on interesting boats) it's obvious that some people have kept up with me and quite a few have passed me.

Wait for me guys!
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