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  #1621  
Old 10-11-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I have learned a lot in 40 years Jeff. When I started out I thought we, my fellow sailors and I, were all, going to go on this adventure of learning together. Then one day I realized that there were a lot of people not keeping up. I guess it was a stupid assumption of mine that made me think we'd all progress together. But if you look around at some of the marvelous,well rounded boats being produced today (just look at Paulo's thread on interesting boats) it's obvious that some people have kept up with me and quite a few have passed me.

Wait for me guys!
Some cling with a white fisted grip, to the past, and attack anyone suggesting anything could ever be done in a better way, or for that matter, in any way, which is any different from the way it has always been done. Those are the people we left behind. Had humanity let them call the shots, we would have never made it out of the stone age
  #1622  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess I understand what you are trying to say but you are saying it the wrong way. Has Bob pointed out on boats with a similar water-plane a given load will have the same effect in what regards inches of immersion and that has nothing to do with the weight of the boats... but if a boat weights twice the weight of another those inches are a much smaller proportion regarding the total immersed area, close to 50%, and that will translate in a bigger tolerance in what regards that load. I mean the boat will be less affected by that load.

For instance imagine a very light carbon racer that has the same waterplane of an heavy steel voyage boat that weights 7 times more (and has a hugely bigger immersed area).

Both boats will be immersed the same number of inches by the same big load, let's say half the weight of the racing boat but half of the weight of the racing boat is just 1/14 times of the weight of the steel boat and while the racer will be very sluggish carrying a load that corresponds to half of its weight (and represent a big perceptual amount of his immersed surface) the heavy still boat will have perceptually a small increase in his total immersed area, one that will corresponds to 1/14 of its own weight.

Regards

Paulo
In a heavier boat, the extra load will mean far less change in the sail area to displacement ratio.
  #1623  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
GRP boats in all their iterations are here to stay until something better comes along. It won't be steel.

Just a reminder, again, this Nordic 40 just completed a solo circumnavigation. Remarkably it is still in one piece. The owner is very happy with the boat. It's a great looking boat.

Brent's constant whining that our GRP boats are not up to the job can be proven wrong over and over just with my own designs. Lighten up Brent. You like steel boats and some people don't. What's wrong with that?
The Kon Tiki did the job she was built for. Doesn't make her the best choice for ocean cruising.
  #1624  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob you are one of the designers that will remain as a major influence in the XX century yacht design. You know that and I know that too.

Unfortunately sailing has taken a set back in the states that did not happen in Europe. For evolution it is needed work a lot of work and not only by a few designers but it comes from a global everynoment where the creativity of many talents creates a fast development of the art (and new materials) that is fueled not only by many new commands of cruising boats but also for a very fertile offshore racing panorama that creates a lot of healthy competition not only between sailors but also between designers.

While in Europe the shipyards that produce cruising boats command the designs of their boats to the best NA, many times the same that are involved in the racing scene, in the USA I saw the bigger producers like Hunter or Catalina doing in the house the designs. How can they compete in design quality and evolution with NA that are involved in that creativity bath and that are competing hard in what regards the quality and innovation of their work, assisted by high computerized technology and material knowledge developed on the racing scene?

There are talented boat designers in the states (you included) and I really cannot understand why the major US brands do not use their talent and try instead to copy with some delay what is being made in Europe, bad copies many times, I would say.

I like your designs and the obvious perfectionism you put in your work and I love the attitude you just expressed in your last post. I do really want to see the new designs inspired by it.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1625  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design. " Brent Swain

THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG! It shows what little grasp BS has of design elements.

Let me explain:
Say we have two 40' boats. One weighs 30,000 lbs. The other boat weighs 15,000 lbs. Half the weight of the other. Both boats have similar DWL's, say 33'. Both boats have similar beam, say 12'8". The heavier boat will have much greater hull epth and that's where the extra displ comes from.

But displacement has nothing to do with where a boat floats as it is loaded or unloaded. ZERO! The number we are looking for here is "pounds per inch immersion" or PPI. It's very easy to calculate. You take the square footage of your waterplane, the boat's footprint in the water, and multiply that by 64 and then divide by 12. For our example boats we will end up with a PPI around 1,300 lbs.

So, you put 1,300 lbs. of gear on either boat and it will sink an inch. Due to the flare of the hulls the waterplane will increase as the boat sinks and the PPI will go up gradually. But how a boat responds in flotation to loads being added has nothing to do with
displacement. This is often misunderstood by beginners or people not skilled in yacht design.

Two boats with generally similar DWLs and beam will have a similar waterplane area, give or take.
I could even easiyt draw examples where the heavier boat had less waterplane than the light boat. If this were the case then the heavy boat would sink more than the light boat for every pound loaded on. Consider this: You are only sinking the waterplane, not the boat that is already sunk. That volume is already "displaced".

"the heavier designed boat will be floating much closer to her original lines." Brent Swain

This is just nonsense. I'm sorry but anyone who claims to be a yacht designer should have a handle on PPI. I didn't make it up. Look on page 285 in Skene's. We might be falling back into that world where Brent thinks a boat can have a positive Rm of 182 degrees again. That still makes me chuckle.

If anyone has a problem understanding this let me know. I'll happily try to explain it in more clear terms if I need to.
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  #1626  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"In a heavier boat, the extra load will mean far less change in the sail area to displacement ratio. "

Yes Brent but that's IS NOT what you said. You said what you said and I'm still waiting for an explanation. (see above post) Maybe you can't answer it due to a meeting with the Flat Earth Society tonight. Please explain your math on this and quit weaseling out of the question.

How can I discuss yacht design with someone who still can't fathom Archimedes Principle?.

Now let's address the SA/D issue. Excuse me here but I will have to generalize a bit. Chances are that the lighter boat started life with a much higher SA/D than did the heavy boat. The light boat could have had a SA/D of 22.5 even higher. While the heavy boat could have had a SA/D of 15.2 even lower.

Do the math. Come on Brent. You are obviously a whiz at math. Show me how the SA/D's change.

But it doesn't matter. We'll let Brent lick his pencil and go figuring. I think it is entirely reasonable to think the lighter design was probably the superior design to begin with. It's a newer boat I would assume. So even loaded down to where it shares the same SA/D with the heavy boat it is still the better boat.

But Brent has a point. He just has no clue how to make it:

The problem is, and I have gone over this before, on the light boat you will be challenged to find room for all that extra weight. If you want to carry 5,000 lbs. of gear on your trip the heavy boat can stash it away in its deep, cavernous hull somewhere. The light boat doesn't' have that option. But let's restore some reality here. The owner of the light boat would not have dreamed of carrying the same extra load as the heavy boat owner stowed. The light boat owner would be very careful what he took aboard and how that weight effected his boat.

So, in the end it's a bit of a silly argument. You want a heavy boat? Go for it. You want a light boat? Go for it. But you can't carry the extra weight the heavy boat can. And it's not about ratios Brent. You don't understand them anyway (read previous post). It's not even about performance. It's about VOLUME.

And Brent:
"we would have never made it out of the stone age "
Sorry but your boats are the stone age. Look at Paulo's thread, Interesting sailboats. This is today.
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Last edited by bobperry; 10-11-2013 at 08:32 PM.
  #1627  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
" its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made,"

I'm not buying this. I need you to be specific. I consider the Valiant 40 to be one of the best cruising boats ever built and I sure as hell wouldn't lump it in with the Westsail. I do consider the Westsail one of the very best production offshore boats of all time. But I don't think that this just spreads by contact or association to every old traditional designs. Some were great boats in their time and some were not, in any time. I don't generalize.
But you are Bob, your saying that modern designs are better and that is a generalization of the first order.

Valiant 40? never heard of it but I am going to look it up. What I know comes from rags like latitude 38, the yachtsman, and the forums

Quote:
Just seems to me if these new designs are so very good then I would see news clips once in awhile about the miraculous survival of a bill Johnson yacht, but I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Ok, allow me to be a smart ass for a moment. Maybe that's because the owners of the modern better performing boats are smarter and don't get caught out in survival situations.Or, (less smart ass) the modern better performing boat is able to sail it's way out of those situations and not require survival tactics. The ability to go to weather well can be a life saver.

Sir, your exactly right. These are the same people that bought new westsails back in the days of old and made them famous.
In your defense one of the reasons new models have failed to achieve the status of some older designs: I generalize here to keep from pointing fingers and offending someone. Is because of more advanced electronics that allows them current weather sea data instantly anyplace on the globe. That technology wasn't born back then so mariners were bound to get caught off guard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Or, the modern better performing boat is able to sail it's way out of those situations and not require survival tactics. The ability to go to weather well can be a life saver.
I'll give you that one, good point. Couple that with better performance, modern materials the new instrumentation available now I'll bet even a dunce like me could make it safely across the bath tub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I still find this argument rife with generalities that make it irrelevant...

Bob, have you ever sold used cars?......chuckle


Oh, that Bill Johnson.


You'd like him

Best wishes
Britt

Last edited by Faster; 10-11-2013 at 09:27 PM. Reason: fixed messed up quotes
  #1628  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Bob, have you ever sold used cars?......chuckle"
That is an insult.

I find you post incomprehensible.

Do me a favor. Go sailing. Learn something about sailing. You admit you know nothing about sailing. I truly believe you. Time to shut up and sail.

Go sailing. Then after you have sailed for three or four years you might know something about sailing and you can come back here and carry on a cogent conversation about boats.

Just start studying on your own. You have a lot to learn and it's fun.
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  #1629  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Bob, have you ever sold used cars?......chuckle"
That is an insult.

I find you post incomprehensible.

Do me a favor. Go sailing. Learn something about sailing. You admit you know nothing about sailing. I truly believe you. Time to shut up and sail.

Go sailing. Then after you have sailed for three or four years you might know something about sailing and you can come back here and carry on a cogent conversation about boats.

Just start studying on your own. You have a lot to learn and it's fun.
thank you sir, good advice and will go tomorrow
I've learned much from you and others but need more hands on.
  #1630  
Old 10-11-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. New designs of current manufacture may claim to be superior but where's the proof?
Check back on those new designs in 40 years. They will be out there and many of them will have done incredible things. Like the Hunter 49, Sequitur, that handled an F10/11 off Cape Horn without a problem.

I think your basic problem is putting stock in 40 years of old opinion. The "best blue water" opinions are there because those old boats have been around so long and are cheap enough for a wide audience to buy and, therefore, discuss. The new stuff is proving itself just fine. So stay tuned.
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