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  #161  
Old 07-15-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
B S:
Just put the matter to rest by publishing one of your weight studies. That should do it. If nothing esle it will put the peanut gallery to sleep. Few things are more boring or NECESSARY than a weight study.
Are you implying that all owners of your boats put exactly the same things of exactly the same weigh in every one of your boats, or that you make that assumption when designing them?
Now that's naive, or dishonest! Go read Hal Roths calculation of the weight of ground tackle he used. Do you use the same numbers for weight calculations for your 35 footers? Did Spencer? Did his boat float on the waterline they said it would ? Not achance! Nor do yours fully loaded for cruising?
Someone earlier on this thread sugested that two boxes of stuff constituted a cruising load. The designer of my first boat, Kinny, calculated 200 lbs total for personal belongings. Now that's incredibly naive, or dishonest to get the numbers down. I have no idea of how much of a packrat any owner will turn out to be( and neither do you) and I'm honest enough to admit it, unlike some designers who claim to have telpathic knowledge of such maters. to get their numbers down to misleading, unrealistic promises.I give the empty weight, which is all any designer is capable of doing honestly, the rest is up to the owner which will vary widely. No two owners will put exactly the same interior in.

Gettin warm.Time for a swim,then another ice cream cone.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 07-15-2013 at 08:32 PM.
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  #162  
Old 07-15-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I'm not implying anything and as I read this thread we are talking about your boats not mine. Of course loads will vary from owner to owner and from time to time. But if we could see one of your weight studies we would have some benchmark to work from in discussing weight issues of BS designs.

I do weight studies in three stages:
Light ship or as launched
Half load or as you might typically find the boat at the dock on any given day
Full load, tanks full and a lot of personal gear and stores.

Of course, if you don't have a weight study you can publish I would certainly understand. I can't imagine someone who struggles with numbers like you do even doing a coherant and thorough weight study.

Here is MOBISLE a truly fast passage maker, at hull speed and on it's lines on it's way to Australia. A very good looking boat to my biased eye. Transom just kissing the water making use of every inch of sailing length. Of course I had a good weight study.

We'll wait for your weights.
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Last edited by bobperry; 07-15-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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  #163  
Old 07-15-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Colvin did a great job of providing plans for home steel boat builders when no one else would. He was ahead of his time, when it came to cruising boat building materials . He is well behind the times in his methods and technology, when it comes to modern steel boat building methods.

What about Van de Stadt ? Surely they were in the steel boat plan business at the same time as Colvin ? Other than that when did Roberts kick off ?
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  #164  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Fuzzmeister:
I'm with you on Van de Stadt. They did some very good looking and very good performing boats. Talk to Estar/Evans. He loves his boat. Don't be confused and think that all steel boats have to look like BS designs.
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  #165  
Old 07-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent
I posted this a few days ago.
Unless I missed it, if I did I'm sorry talk to me about the paint.

Brent says his paint job has lasted 29 years. AllGrip is generally expected to last about 10 years so I wonder what paint he has used?

Maybe today's paint is not as good.


Brent I'm going to order your book for whatever that is worth.

As for the rest of you I don't read what Brent says as untruthful as much as from a different world.
We all end up on a different path of life. Some of us go to college, so military some big city business some farming etc.

I don't doubt that Brent has done exactly what he has said such as welding up a steel 36' hull in a couple days.
But I've been around long enough to know that a 45' to 50' hull might be a totally different thing.
The days are probably a little more that 8 hours.
There was significant preparation before the building started (days or weeks)
It is not going to look like a Catalina when it is done.
Fairing and painting can take as long as I want to play with it.
The chances of me being able to scrounge enough for the rig, interior, propulsion etc is not likely. That hasn't been my world.

So the chances of it working out for me is slim. I'm still going to buy the book because I admire people who do things differently from the norm and I might be able to learn something.

I think you all have to admit that a lot of what Brent says makes a lot of sense. Welded deck with no holes. Stainless rail with weep holes outboard etc.

I'll bet that their isn't a square inch of hull inside or out that is not inspectable. If every square inch of 1/4" steel is coated in a 1/16 inch of epoxy plus paint in side and out I could believe that all you have to do is touch up the paint once in a while.
Especially if anyplace their ever was any wear he welded in a piece of stainless.

The plywood interior was often scavenged so I doubt if it looks like a Sabre. It is probably painted with house paint but so what.

Trying to compare what Brent does to what Bob does doesn't make any sense at all. The product is too different. The people drawn to one or the other is too different.

I remember a story about some pirates that lost their ship on an island. They used the bowsprit from their wrecked boat as the keel to build a get-away ship and built it from what they could salvage from the big boat.
They build a forge and reworked iron they salvaged into whatever they needed.
It took a couple months but they sailed away.

This is one of my favorite stories.
That

I noticed that the website hosting it went down so I rescued it from archive.org and posted it on my site.
This guy built this boat from scratch in the jungle of latin america.
Shows that someone with a lot of skill, talent and determination can do.
I see Brent in the same category of these guys. A dying breed.



I'm still interested in the paint job Brent if you are still around.
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Last edited by davidpm; 07-16-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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  #166  
Old 07-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
What about Van de Stadt ? Surely they were in the steel boat plan business at the same time as Colvin ? Other than that when did Roberts kick off ?
Yes, Van de Stadt was designing some of the best boats of that era, with methods decades ahead of Colvin. Unlike Colvin, he made advances in steel boatbuilding, by thinking outside the box, and not geting stuck in a technological time warp, as Colvin did. Dealing with European bureucrartic control freaks, he took a huge and brave step in treating steel as a different medium, taking full advantage of the material, radically diffetent from the imitation wooden boatbuilding methods which Colvin stuck dogmatically to.
Van de Stadt 's boats were much better and more advanced boats than anything Colvin ever designed.
Roberts has some well saiing designs, but they reflect a lack of experience in working in steel. He stated in his last book that he designs his skegs to fall of if they hit anything, another demonstration of lack of experience. They are better boats than Colvins, shape wise, but you had better do some reinforcing of his skegs , and forget about this Spray design, a true disaster in steel.
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  #167  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

My steel came wheelabraded and primed with carboweld cold galvanizing zinc rich primer, 85% zinc dry weight. I touched up the welds with a similar product, washed all the welding smoke off, with first TSP then vinegar then water, let her dry, then gave her 5 coats of bar rust 235 brown on the hull, three coats inside, and four on the decks. The thicker the epoxy the better. This I covered ,for colour and UV protection with marine enamel. Epoxy gets continuously thiner under UV. I give her another coat of cheap marine enamel every few years. To get anything to stick to epoxy, you have to put your first coat of enamel or urethane on the last coat of epoxy, wet on wet. Otherwise it will fall off in sheets.If you are using epoxy tar, it will bleed thru and look like hell. Give it another coat in 24 hours, then leave it alone for several weeks, to harden up well. Then you can put any colour you want over it , including white, and it will not bleed thru .
For commercial boats, where the epoxy is constantly getting knocked off, sandblasting and a buildup of zinc primer will not get knocked off, and can be overcoated with more zinc primer any time.

Waser makes good zinc primers.
Origamiboats, being as fair as any fibreglass hull, need no fairing, but if you have a hull you have to fair, then fairing is best done from the inside , with a hydraulic jack on a telescoping pole. Where the hull is dished inwards, you tack a length of flatbar on the inside of the bulge, then force it out with the jack ,and put several tacks along it. When you release the jack, it will stay fair, far more permanently that any filler. You can find the hollows with a flashlight, shone along the hull after dark. Do the whole inside of the hull this way, wherever there are hollows. Dont worry about what it looks like inside, that will be covered with many coats of epoxy tar and sprayfoam, and never seen again. It's the outside, and minimizing filler which counts.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 07-16-2013 at 02:19 AM.
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  #168  
Old 07-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Fuzzmeister:
I'm with you on Van de Stadt. They did some very good looking and very good performing boats. Talk to Estar/Evans. He loves his boat. Don't be confused and think that all steel boats have to look like BS designs.
You are right. Few look as good as BS designs. Most have full length chines, visible when the boat is in the water, unlike BS designs. I see a lot of steel boats going to a lot of trouble and expense to eliminate ugly, visible chines ,but I see few adding full length chines to a round bilged boat to make it look better.
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  #169  
Old 07-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No Brent BS designs do not look good. They are in fact crude and pretty ugly boats. They are boats. I'll give you that. They are not yachts. You will never convince me otherwise. At 15 years old I knew that boats could look better than the designs you produce. If that was yacht design I would have chosen a diffent path.

But hell, ugly is good. Lots of people like ugly. Not sure why.
I think you are on very thin ice when you talk about aesthetics.

But you still manage to try to change the subject everytime a reasonable question is asked. You refuse to go head to head. Weasel.

About that weight study? Are you going to post it or just weasel out and try to once again change the subject. You weasel well.
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  #170  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
No Brent BS designs do not look good. They are in fact crude and pretty ugly boats. They are boats. I'll give you that. They are not yachts. You will never convince me otherwise. At 15 years old I knew that boats could look better than the designs you produce. If that was yacht design I would have chosen a diffent path.

But hell, ugly is good. Lots of people like ugly. Not sure why.
I think you are on very thin ice when you talk about aesthetics.

But you still manage to try to change the subject everytime a reasonable question is asked. You refuse to go head to head. Weasel.

About that weight study? Are you going to post it or just weasel out and try to once again change the subject. You weasel well.

Bob. This contradicts your earlier posts.. You have some of the best looking boats out there, second only to mine. If I emulated your hull shapes in steel, they would be horrendously expensive, time consuming,"Miss Bondo's." Different materials call for different shapes.
No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 07-30-2013 at 07:59 PM.
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