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  #1701  
Old 10-14-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post


Can you explain what you mean with this:"KoolAid"? "the biggest drinker of all, Bob"? What drinking has to do with this? or you mean that we are all drunk?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo.. sent you a PM
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  #1702  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Oh, haven't I seen this before: photo of some displays, indicting some extra performance. The same old stories - we did xx knots, you must believe it.

Either you have abslute calibrated instruments (which a normal boat owner only can dream of) and full knowledge and documenation of the environment (which nobody really does), or you test your boat in a race towards others.

Of course also a xx year old boat can move! In my area we have full knowledge, some of the old ones are fast (but then they are looong as well).
Usually I beat a 16++ meter 75 sqm (standard class here) with my 40 ft. Not difficult.

It would be very strange if a modern boat wouldn't be better than an old one. Competition leads to selection, simple.

/J
  #1703  
Old 10-14-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
That's great. But my contention is that when you're talking overall performance, an 80 year old full keel boat is not going to perform like a modern racer/cruiser. PHRF tends to agree.

So take all the photos you want. I'm still not convinced until you're taking every race you're in against Beneteau Firsts, etc. Show me those pickle dishes then we'll talk koolaid.
I suspect that someone has never heard the term "calibration" in reference to instruments.

My friends current version Hunter 38 can't get closer than 60 degrees - according to the wind instrument - yet it manages a PHRF around 105.
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  #1704  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, for the cruiser wannabe that really wants a steel boat - this would be the way to go. It would be a lot cheaper (with a lot less misery over many years) than actually buying BS' plans and trying to build it yourself.

I'm pretty sure it was this boat that Brent said Bushnell built for $35K all-in (after building several other previously - hence gaining all that experience). So, you're gonna spend AT MINIMUM $35K and several years just getting the thing to float. Why not lowball Dove IV at $45K and save the hassle. Bushnell gets a $10K profit (thanks for the info Brent) - and the cruising wannabe gets one of the best BS Boats on the market for cheap AND in much better shape than even Brent's own boat.
Having spent many months deep in the local boat market recently I have very serious doubts that boat will fetch anything remotely like those numbers.

Maybe 1/2, because that boat has some history. For example there are currently several Endurance 35's for sale starting in the $20's asking.
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  #1705  
Old 10-14-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
For 13k app wind with that angle and speed the true wind speed is about 8.5k. At that wind angle and conditions my boat (and 40 ft performance boats in general) would be doing 7.0K or maybe a bit over. I make the speed and angle that you are talking about with approximately 5K of true wind.

You forget that I was talking about sailing against 2.0m short period waves and with 8.5K of wind you are talking about flat or almost flat sea. Do you know the importance that has on a boat speed going against waves due to wave drag? For managing that I had full sails out (jib and main) on a boat that has a very big SA/D. That means a very hard motion and a huge sail power involved. Those old boats simply don't have the power to do this, at least with 13K of TRW.

Anyway even so the values you show in what regards TRW (without waves) are more than 10º worse than the values I was talking about even sailing against a very nasty sea. I was doing 41.9º to the true wind and you 54.4º. That is a HUGE difference considering that even so I was going faster. Both things put together, the much better angle and the much superior speed will mean that in very little time you will be a very small point on the horizon, I mean beating directly against the wind.

Regards

Paulo
Thanks, although we've seen many times in this (and other threads) that facts and numbers doesn't matter for some
Another example I like to use is the die-hard folkboat owners here (we have many) they constantly claim that their boat is superior, but still they come in hours later tired and wet. I love the folkboat but even in the H-boat we're able to sail figure eights around it most of the time.
So enjoy your boat (mine is from the seventies and are slower than the newer desings, but way faster than any long keeler from the same period.

/Joms
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  #1706  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Floyd:
I am not "all knowing".
I think I can speak for most of us here: WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING.
You are being an insulting person again. Is this a habit with you? If not I think you may have a problem with words. You do come off kind of smarmy. Yeah, smarmy is the correct word.

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 51 - Boat Design Forums
Bob, that comment was in an old post and was in response to your demeaning attitude toward me. No offense was taken and I hope non given.
  #1707  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Burt:
Me? Angry? Are you a shrink? I think not.

No, I'm not angry. I'm not an angry kind of guy. I am energized and passionate about the work l I have spent my life doing. I have strong opinions.

I do not suffer fools. You probably noticed that already.

My work?
The results speak for themselves. Can't alter that. It's history. I'd apologize but I like the way it worked out.

I designed the Tayana 37 when I was 27 yeats old. To me it is is an antique with antique performance. Not a bad boat considering it was designed by a kid. Not sure why you insist on using it as a benchmark. I sure as hell do not.
Maybe he designed the aluminum boat I mentioned when he was even younger, which is why he denies having designed it. That's an easy way out for any budding designer who designs a lemon.
If you see the tendency in his posts you will conclude that
Bob, the self certified shrink ,defines "angry" as anyone who disagrees with him. According to him, if you were not angry, you would agree with everything he says. You will see that he has applied that diagnosis to every thing I have posted, which didn't agree with his opinion
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-14-2013 at 05:23 PM.
  #1708  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess I understand what you are trying to say but you are saying it the wrong way. Has Bob pointed out on boats with a similar water-plane a given load will have the same effect in what regards inches of immersion and that has nothing to do with the weight of the boats... but if a boat weights twice the weight of another those inches are a much smaller proportion regarding the total immersed area, close to 50%, and that will translate in a bigger tolerance in what regards that load. I mean the boat will be less affected by that load.

For instance imagine a very light carbon racer that has the same waterplane of an heavy steel voyage boat that weights 7 times more (and has a hugely bigger immersed area).

Both boats will be immersed the same number of inches by the same big load, let's say half the weight of the racing boat but half of the weight of the racing boat is just 1/14 times of the weight of the steel boat and while the racer will be very sluggish carrying a load that corresponds to half of its weight (and represent a big perceptual amount of his immersed surface) the heavy still boat will have perceptually a small increase in his total immersed area, one that will corresponds to 1/14 of its own weight.

Regards

Paulo
You are right, that was a typo or bad choice of words. Bob never makes typos? The pounds per inch immersion rate is exactly the same for a given waterline beam and length, regardless of displacement. I use the chart out of Skenes elements of yacht design. However, the percentage of increase in total displacement 1,000- lbs gives you us much higher in a light displacement hull than in a heavy displacement hull, as is the change in performance.
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  #1709  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"You are right, that was a typo or bad choice of words."
Bad choice of words? Try JUST PLAIN WRONG! Nice weaseling effort though.

"I use the chart out of Skenes elements of yacht design. However, the percentage of increase in total displacement 1,000- lbs gives you us much higher in a light displacement hull than in a heavy displacement hull, as is the change in performance. "

What is this? English as a second language?
You use the nomograph in Skene's? Why not calculate it yourself and get some
accuracy? That's what I do. The nomograph is a very general estimate and far out of date.


No Brent I just plain never did design this imaginary alu 28'er you keep bringing up. You lie over and over. I do not dis-own my designs. I have no need to. I like my old work. I am proud of it.

As for your "shrink" post, I can't make heads or tails as to what you are trying to say. It's unintelligible.

Just got back from giving a talk to the PNW CCA meeting. The PNW Chapter is the biggest in the US. I was expecting 20 people but we must have had at least 60. I had Kim and Doug Fryer (NIGHT RUNNER) with me. I prefer to let them talk while I stand to the side smile, and nod knowingly.

Of course I was feeling pretty darn good. It's nice to have two very appreciative owners at your side when giving a presentation like this.

And,,,, here's the big one:
Kim and I had just come from a quick splash of the FRANCIS LEE. Kim will probably post some pics later. The yard wanted to stick it in the water " just to check". I wasn't worried but you are always concerned when a new boat is launched. The FRANCIS LEE is dead on it's lines and at this stage sans rig, batteries and liquids a bit over a 1,200 lbs. LIGHT! We are going to be very close to our designed weight. Trim is a non issue. It spot on.

So I had a very good morning today.
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Last edited by bobperry; 10-14-2013 at 06:36 PM.
  #1710  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My critics there were an interesting collection .,only one of whom had ever built or cruised in a steel boat, and only very limited coastal cruising at that. One was a cowboy ( "Never built a steel boat , but I welded up a lot of steel fencepost so I know a lot about steel boat building"). Another was building his first steel boat, an abortion, so he became an instant expert, claiming to know more about steel boat building than some one who had built dozens. When he put a plywood cabin on a steel boat I resisted the urge to suggest he use something lighter and less prone rot, or that he use a stainless flange to bolt it down on. (Something I have recently done, with excellent results). When he had anchor locker problems I resisted the urge to offer a very simple solution. As he has attacked every suggestion I made ,let him learn the hard way ( at great expense). He will discover the true skill of his designer when he first sits down on his setee and the side deck whacks him in the back of the head( on a 38 footer!) Many of my clients have upgraded to my boats from that design, an upgrade which all have considered a huge improvement.
Anyone backing me up on that site, including Coast Guard, were all attacked and accused of being me under an alias. Some instantly began receiving threatening emails. Dudly Dix was briefly on that site. He sent me an email saying he was attacked and threatened for having something nice to say about Ganley designs. I wonder how many others, with actual hands on experience, have been driven away by their adolescent jeering. There are not many there who have any significant experience in small steel boat building or design .
The attacks on me became racist, and one white South African stated he was " A racist and proud of it." He also posted on that site a that all torch cuts must be thoroughly ground, then posted on another site that "A good cut needs no grinding."
Another , claiming to be a naval architect, stated that shape has no effect on stiffness. ( A square submarine pressure hull, or a square propane bottle is just as strong as a round one? Ya sure) He also claimed that 13 inches of 3/16th plate is not as strong as three 5/16th inch shrouds, and that which has worked for decades without failure , just may fail in its first 4 hours.
Another ,very childish individual claimed that the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength hi holding the inside of each of my twin keels on was irrelevant. He tried to take his arguments to the origamiboats site, and was quickly laughed off the stage.
I was attacked for suggesting that a simple stainless sch 40 pipe nipple welded in, for thru hulls has given me and anyone else I know, zero problems in over 40 years. They stated that a plastic thru hull is stronger and safer. Then they suggested a complex arrangement of mild steel flanges and bolts with, zero access behind the flanges and bolts for maintenance.

People going to that site with a simple question, have instantly been jeered at and attacked, for not already having all the answers ( such as they claim to have)


Thus a gang of jeering ,very inexperienced luddites with nearly zero experience on the subject at hand, have wrecked that site, in order to give themselves the last word on any subject which comes up.
It had huge potential as a source of information, but has been sabotaged into uselessness.
Some claim that this is being done to an increasing number of sites.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-14-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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