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  #1811  
Old 10-21-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Is the Hoek boat steel?
If it is then consider the bar raised.
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  #1812  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Is the Hoek boat steel?
If it is then consider the bar raised.
From the page PCP linked to under the photo:

Quote:
Wellenreiter is the largest Jongert yacht ever launched. She was designed by Andre Hoek and built in 2003. This 46 m steel sloop with aluminium superstructure and keel/centreboard configuration has a very high sail area to displacement ratio for a keel boat. Other technical elements include her furling boom, captive winches and storage for two tenders in the stern (under deck) and bow (integrated in the superstructure).

Below decks luxury prevails. The full beam owner’s stateroom is located astern and includes an office, sitting room and vast walk-through bathroom, a spectacular feature normally found on large motor yachts.
The Custom Line has become synonymous with personal comfort and perfection down to the finest detail.
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  #1813  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Must take one hell of a big sheet to do the origami fold up thing on a boat that size.
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  #1814  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

There is no reason for a steel yacht to be less beautiful than an aluminium yacht and there are plenty of beautiful relatively small aluminium yachts. It can be done, but it is not done, I mean the designers specialized in aluminum and steel boats are for many years doing almost exclusively aluminum boats. I don't say that they will not consider steel a good option it is just that there is not a significant market for them.

The Dutch (Hoek is Dutch) are one of the European countries where metal (steel and aluminium) boats are truly appreciated and they always had NA specialized in steel and aluminium boats.

Let's take for example Dick Zall, he says about steel boats:

"Steel has many advantages for boat building, among the foremost of which are its strength and resistance to abrasion and impact. “A small boat built of steel is as close to truly indestructible as it’s possible to get,” writes naval architect Dave Gerr in The Nature of Boats. Another advantage of steel is that it’s easily worked on by welders anywhere in the world, making repairs inexpensive for cruising boats.

It is also ductile, or stretchable, which means that if you hit a rock or a half-submerged shipping container, you’re not likely to sink. The hull may be dented and deformed, but it probably won’t be holed, as a wooden or fibreglass hull might be. On the other hand, steel vessels are heavy because to keep the skin plating from wrapping during welding, a plate thickness of 3 mm is minimum, and often 4 mm is used for this reason.

So it takes boats longer than 15.00 metres to become more or less equal with some other building materials, although it remains a lot heavier than composite for instance.

However the performances of a proper designed heavy displacement yacht are just what is ideal for the long distance cruiser, taking a lot of stores and gear along.

She will more easily float on her designed lines, while a light displacement yacht taking the same load will become dangerous as well as misbehaving."


He says something I have heard other NA saying: It does not make sense to make a very small (less than 40ft) steel boat. The sail performance would be bad, while a bigger boat (45/50ft) would have comparatively a much better performance. This is because the weight of a steel boat is not proportional to its size and it is possible to make a bigger boat proportionally lighter.

Regarding what I was saying about the almost non existence of new designs in steel even in the designers that used to work with the material, just look at the page of Dick Zall regarding the boats he had done in steel and the ones he is doing in aluminium. It is easy to see that steel designs are all old designs while we can find several contemporary designs regarding aluminium boats:

Designs Overview : steel | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

Designs Overview : aluminium | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

If we do the same with other famous Dutch Na specialized in steel and Aluminium (Koopmans, father and son) we will see the same. New designs are in Aluminium.

http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/news/

For what I understand many aluminium designs could be built in steel with some structural alterations and vice-versa. Koopmans offers many of his designs in steel or aluminium. The reason steel is not utilized has not to do with any difficulty in doing nice boats and nice designs but due to the market, meaning sailors want faster boats even if at the cost of less resistance to impact and a bigger price (regarding aluminium).

Fact is that the standard of sailing boat speed have been increasing rapidly. Today a main mass market boat like the Jeanneau 409 is faster than a 30 year old cruiser racer, new materials and the use of infusion cored boats made fiberglass boats much lighter increasing a lot the difference of weigh between a steel boat and a fiberglass boat and to that difference corresponds an increase in the difference in performance.

Steel boats made no sense today? Off course not, they are still the strongest boats but only few (except for some extreme sailing) would chose them over other material options. That is not an opinion, it is a fact that as a direct reflex on the market.
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Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2013 at 10:07 AM.
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  #1815  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
and so will I.

One of my favorites from a book of unattainable dreams ....

Arthur Beiser's Alden ketch "Minots Light".



What a great book. I bought my copy at a flea market about 10 years ago and paid about $3 for it. He did a follow up book (I've forgotten the title, but it was something like "The Proper Yacht, Vol. 2") that I also have (forgot how I obtained that one). I didn't find the second book as much fun as the first; probably because it focussed on fiberglass boats of a vintage that did not excite me that much. As I recall, the first book profiled only one fiberglass boat, the Allied Seabreeze (a boat I find particularly fetching).
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I always liked Kanter aluminum boats myself.

http://www.kanteryachts.com/kanter.html

Their mission statement says it all!
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Wow. That's freakin' gorgeous.

So the problem seems to be "settling" for the "workboat aesthetic" in smaller steel boats simply because they don't know how to do anything better?
Forget about the Noordkaper and company:





The Noordkaper is the only European small production steel boat I know off.

The boats can be built in Aluminium or steel but given the type of boat in my opinion steel makes more sense and fact is that most boats they make are steel boats.

The boats are made along traditional lines and make great living aboard boats with an incredible amount of space. I like them.

Gebr. van Enkhuizen. Yachtbuilders .Noordkaper. Sossego, Enk-Yacthts en Noorderkotter.

http://www.noordkaper.com/noordkaper...e%20ENG%20.pdf

http://www.noordkaper.com/noordkaper...kaper%2040.pdf

http://www.noordkaper.com/yachtbuilding01.htm

The Noordkaper are very well buit have a great finish but even in steel they are very expensive boats

Some movies:





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Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2013 at 06:06 PM.
  #1818  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I like those Paulo. I'd like them better if I had drawn the sheerline. But still they are beautifully executed.
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  #1819  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

The Designer is Martin Bekebrede another Dutch NA specialized in steel and aluminium with very conservative but many times beautiful drawings. Most of them have a traditional look and a also "traditional" hulls.

MBYD - Martin Bekebrede Yacht Design

But I like more the work of another conservative Dutch Na, also with many steel and aluminium designs, particularly his Zaca series. Have a look at the bigger one (steel).

http://www.oliviervanmeer.com/fleet/sail.html



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Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2013 at 08:01 PM.
  #1820  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I’ve worked with a lot with and steel vessels of all sizes and flavors. New designs, re designs and project management of maintenance and rebuilding. One thing you learn with steel commercial boats is to keep the steelwork simple well finished, visible and maintainable. Direct any possible water ingress quickly and cleanly to the bilge and allow inspection of the hull interior below surrounding any insert in the hull deck and cabinsides.

But too often a fitout that suits a GRP hull is fitted in a steel boat to it’s detriment. The trend to installing seamless glued fitouts in steel leisure production boats from yards such as Jongert and Trintella wasn’t a great trend. It gave steel a bad name because interior maintenece, even basic inspection was impossible without ripping out, and then rebuilding parts of the interior. Charter sailboats were milked till they needed substantial replating then sold.

Steel screams it’s demise to corrosion. Only a third of rusts mass is from iron, (there are 2 moles of Oxygen to one mole of iron) and the corrosion product puffs up 4 to 6 times the plate thickness prior to actually holing it and it’s ugly and highly visible. As a result even neglected boats tend to have external rust issues fixed while still a minor pitting problem. As a result most steel hull problems are internal not external. Althoug there is one real killer and that’s putting timber over a steel deck. This was a big problem with European steel production boats. Little streams of rust stain flowing out from under teak decking is a common sight.

There are a lot of large initially very expensive steel sailboats for example sold for a pittance 25 years down the track with hulls that need substantial patching. That is nearly always because the interior was inaccessible for inspection. Particularly in the typical problem areas.

In my anchorage on moorings ( near Hobart) are a 65 foot steel ketch built in Germany in circa 1910 called ‘Mahe’ and a 1935 steel ketch of 50 feet built in Holland called ‘Scaldis’ both have had some replating over the years mainly in the bilges and anchor locker, but both are very capable ocean going craft of immense strength and have been (and still are) sailed offshore extensively. There’s really no reason I can see that they won’t see another hundred years of use, and probably another after that. But they were built heavily to scaled down ship scantlings by shipbuilding yards and are immensely strong full keel designs. Scaldis goes like a scalded cat with the wind over 20 knots.

I think hot zinc ( or aluminium) spray of the interior of a steel hull is a worthwhile effort for a newbuild. But it pays dividends lond after the first owners have moved it on so it’s never been popular with production boat builders unfortunately. They ( production metal boat builders) have moved to a man to Aluminium alloy now.
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