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  #1891  
Old 10-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I started a thread in general Mainenace, but I guess maybe I should ask here too.

I had plans to build a 5-10HP DIY water cooled Diesel machine to do 12v power generation, and maybe compressed air and possibly even make water.

What complicates that is that I also want to be able to weld.

SO the "easy" solution would be a regular AC genset, and electrically power the other stuff.

But I'm also thinking something like a premier power welder would give me stick and at least DC TIG. Might be good enough though I'd like to do AC for Aluminum.

Are any of you guys with Metal boats doing something cool creative to carry welding gear relatively compactly?
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  #1892  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Chuckles:
But you are laboring under a false assumption. You are equating directional stability with having a long keel. That's just not so. The boats I know with the best directional stability have small-ish keels and nice, big spade rudders well aft. They turn on a dime and they hold a straight course. I've done dozens of boats like this. Look at the Valiant 40. It has a relatively small keel like STEPALAH's but it is renowned for its directional stability.
Well said Bob! Right on!
If a boat sails 5 keel lengths in the time it takes to broach, and wanders only 5 degees per keel length, that is still 50 degrees off course ! For a 30 ft long keel, that's only a sailing distance of 150 feet! Dont expect the relativey short comparative length of a full length keel to make any significant difference in that distance. Hull shape and hull balance makes a huge diference, keel length ; minimal difference, if any. A full length keel will do nothing to compensate for poor hull balance.
What it will give you is around 350 pounds of useless weight in the stern of a steel boat, an area which is almost impossible to access for maintenance, and which is too far aft to use for tankage , without putting excessive weight in the stern, where you need it least . In a steel boat, it is also a lot more work to build a full length keel

Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-27-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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  #1893  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
I started a thread in general Mainenace, but I guess maybe I should ask here too.

I had plans to build a 5-10HP DIY water cooled Diesel machine to do 12v power generation, and maybe compressed air and possibly even make water.

What complicates that is that I also want to be able to weld.

SO the "easy" solution would be a regular AC genset, and electrically power the other stuff.

But I'm also thinking something like a premier power welder would give me stick and at least DC TIG. Might be good enough though I'd like to do AC for Aluminum.

Are any of you guys with Metal boats doing something cool creative to carry welding gear relatively compactly?
I just posted a solution, on another thread on this site. A freind put a water cooled welder on his boat. Doesnt work when the boat is out of the water, so it's useless for welding on zincs, or any other welding below the waterline, a huge inconvenience.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-27-2013 at 01:21 AM.
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  #1894  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Tanton View Post
Well I have joined the Steel Pros and Cons Sailnet Forum. I could not refuse after Bob Perry called me to contribute. I do not know though, how long it will take to simply review 189 pages and still have something to say. Ah! Ah!
Wecome aboard ! Great to have someone else here with origami steel boat experience! It gets kinda lonely here , discussing steel boats, as the only guy posting here with extensive experience with building, maintaining and cruising in steel boats, amid the jeering catcalls from those who know little about the subject.
Pardon us for "taking funny."

Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-28-2013 at 01:51 AM.
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  #1895  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

The October issue of Ocean Navigator has a geat article on the re-building of the classic 141 ft schooner " Columbia" in steel, along with some great photos. They used the gray , cold galvanizing primer , on wheelabraded steel ,the same stuff I used on mine 29 years ago, 99% of which is as good as the day I got it from the steel suppliers.
She is 5/16th hull plate and 1/4 inch deck plate , A-36 steel, common mild steel.
The hull looks like she doesnt have a lot of compound curve in her, only a bit in the topsides, so should be easy to plate, enabling them to use long plates and fewer seams .
The lack of longitudinals will make distortion much harder to control. When they talk about "Fairing " it is not clear whether they mean fairing the steel ,or filler.T-shaping the frames makes them far stronger.
Sadly ,they talk about covering the decks with teak, a huge mistake. Any wood on the outside of a steel boat is a huge mistake, with more maintenace and corrosion along the edges of the wood ,than on the rest of the boat combined. 1/4 inch deck plate gives them more forgivenes than on smaller boats , but only for a while.
At any rate, it looks like an interesting project.
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  #1896  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Another old steeler.

This from I think the first edition of the Proper Yacht. From memory posted in an Anarchy thread on double enders. I have no idea if she still lives.



There is a sistership of Angantyre for sale in Comox BC, possibly by Wills Marine. She is extremely well done, and recently given a mirror finish at Ocean Pacific in Campbell River. A very thorough , and practical welder fitter named Chuck Birchill bought the partly finished hull from a school teacher in Ladysmith BC and finished her extremely well .
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  #1897  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
But Brent, you come back from cruising the same angry little man. I don't think cruising is good for you. It seems to make you very uptight. Chill, relax in front of a computer for a few days. Learn to make a nice drawing. You will feel better.

Things have been going well here for a few days. I don't think we need your constant attacks on everything not BS. You are a bore.
"Anyone who dissagrees with me is angry,or they would simply agree with everything."
Bob the shrink.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Sounds like the way I would have to sail. Thanks fir the info, Looked at an old westsail 32 original owner yesterday that is building his own steel 53 footer. I didn't think the boat was gonna be worth anything and does need a complete refit but the hull looks like a ten year old well maintainedl all original gellcoat never painted. Really nice hull but the rest of the boat was in need of replaceing, at least that's what it looked like to me. Can you imaging an old guy late sixtires building a 53 foot...I think he said ketch.
I cant imagine it . I sure dont want to build any more boats. Just turned down a couple of boats . I'll stick to jobs I can do in a couple of days, max.
Sale of books and plans , plus full pension soon, is all the money than I need.
Cant imagine why he would want a boat that big!
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  #1899  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I know nothing. I have wanted to mention this for several days. On page 153 of sailboats and auxiliaries you can build - Coot - a 27 foot skipjack schooner, a build it yourself plan by William Atkin. Would this look beautiful at 32 or 34 foot in modern materials? Forgive my foot in mouth, but everyone else is doing it. The more beautiful ideas I see (like silver) the happier I am. Feel free to throw rocks.
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  #1900  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by desert rat View Post
I know nothing. I have wanted to mention this for several days. On page 153 of sailboats and auxiliaries you can build - Coot - a 27 foot skipjack schooner, a build it yourself plan by William Atkin. Would this look beautiful at 32 or 34 foot in modern materials? Forgive my foot in mouth, but everyone else is doing it. The more beautiful ideas I see (like silver) the happier I am. Feel free to throw rocks.
One of the virtues of the skipjack hull form is that they are very easy to construct using conventional wood construction with a cross planked bottom. This made the type fast and cheap to build. While they can be adapted to sheet materials (plywood, steel, aluminum) it is very difficult to achieve the subtle shapes at the bow which were literally carved out of a big block of wood.

It would not make sense to build a skipjack in anything more exotic than simple sheet materials because the skipjack hull form just is not that well rounded or suitable for a cruiser a shape for a boat. It's important to understand that the skipjack is a highly evolved type that was developed for a very specific purpose that required a lot of initial stability, shallow draft, the ability to beam reach very powerfully with minimal heel, and an ability to deal with a short chop.

It is a hull form that has limited applicability, and which really is not so great when exposed to big waves, or the kinds of condition that are likely to be encountered on a cruising boat. Smaller skipjack types tend to have an uncomfortable motion, limited angles of positive stability, and very limited seakeeping capabilities. They do not tolerate a lot of freeboard and have shallow hulls making it very hard to get headroom and tankage.

Over time as skip jack hull forms were adapted to cruising yachts they became narrower and better ballasted. A good example of that type would be something like the Seabird Yawl or Wittholz's Destination.

While the schooner rig is beautiful to look at, it's very hard to get well rounded performance out of one, and they are comparatively expensive to build and maintain.

There have been a lot of attempts to evolve oyster boats to cruisers but some of the more effective attempts have been based on the sharpies. You might look up 'Badger'.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 10-27-2013 at 11:09 AM.
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