Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 201 - SailNet Community

 1723Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #2001 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,505
Thanks: 21
Thanked 112 Times in 95 Posts
Rep Power: 12
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I agree with you and I think also that the RM at 90º is important. For having a big value all you need is a boat with a big Max GZ and a boat with a 120º degree AVS. Most of the cruisers today have an AVS around 120 and very rarely you see a AVS superior to 130º (normally performance cruisers and race boats have the higher ones).

But that was not what I was asking, I was asking about that discussion about capsizing that goes on and on. Well, the best Na don't talk about that but many others have a lot of talk about that and the importance of the mass moment of inertia to the dynamic stability. I think that in what sailboats are concern the dynamics of sailing are more important, among them stiffness and the ability to carry sail even on bad weather and have that way the boat firmly "tied" is probably the more important. That was what I wanted to show with that movies. Even the Smaller and lighter Figaro II was sailing among waves, taking waves on the side without rolling or altering its trajectory. That's because the boat is stiff and its "tied" to a side by the wind. Sorry If I cannot explain better what I mean. It is more easy to see it in the movies, or do it in the sea.

You know I am talking about this type of thinking:

"Many years ago during the Fastnet Race, rigorous analyses done after the loss of many vessels revealed that the boats which had concentrated ballast, light structure, and very light rigging suffered excessively due to their harsh rolling motions which caused many dismastings, consequent capsizes, and widespread seasickness.

By comparison, boats with heavier structure, lesser "ballast ratios" and heavier rigs resisted being "thrown" into severe rolling, had a much more seakindly roll motion, were easier on their rigs, did not lose their rigs, did not capsize, and did not experience nearly the degree of sea sickness among their crews. This is counter-intuitive because undoubtedly the heavier vessels had a higher center of gravity and therefore less "static" stability. However due to their distributed masses they had much greater "dynamic" stability, which enhanced both seakindliness and seakeeping ability.

With regard to structure, as compared to a fiberglass vessel a steel vessel will inherently have its mass distributed farther from its roll center, therefore a steel vessel will have a higher roll or mass moment of inertia and will be less active 'dynamically' in terms of roll, pitch, and yaw."


Beam vs. Ballast

You are right, that is not important. Top professional sailors know which are the more seaworthy boats and the designers that design them too.

Regards

Paulo
bobperry likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-30-2013 at 07:46 PM.
PCP is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to PCP For This Useful Post:
bfloyd4445 (10-30-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2002 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
Senior Member
 
skygazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: western Maine
Posts: 583
Thanks: 25
Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by skygazer View Post
That is scary interesting. Was the purpose to slow the roll or something else?
Upon reflection, I often launch with the mast down, and raise it at anchor or on the mooring with gin pole, double block and tackle, and stabilizers.

Particularly if I spend the night on the mooring with the mast unstepped, and raise the mast the next morning, I'm struck by how much more comfortably my boat suddenly rides at the mooring.

The old square riggers were constantly dropping and raising those top masts, so they must have noticed the difference.

This is deep thinking for me, why I read this stuff. Even if I'm lost, as least I'm thinking.
skygazer is offline  
post #2003 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
Senior Moment Member
 
SloopJonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 12,753
Thanks: 81
Thanked 102 Times in 98 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I'll take the stiff boat thanks. Nobosy has ever called me and said, "My boat's too stiff."
Me too. Out of curiosity, have any of your clients ever called and said "My boat has too much sail area"?

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
SloopJonB is offline  
post #2004 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,631
Thanks: 4
Thanked 159 Times in 150 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sky:
Yes, I think the idea was to INCREASE the early LACK of stability. Sounds weird. But these old ships didnt heel more them 20 degrees or they were in deep feces. By decreasing initial stability they were trying or maybe insurring the ship stayed more upright (vertical) rather than trying to conform to the face of the wave, i.e.; perpendicular to the face of the wave. I'm sure it worked for them but it is an entirley different situation ( I'm not going to say scenario) then what we face in a modern yacht. We are all good past 90 degrees.

Don't feel bad. Stabilty is hard. I have been working to understand it since I was 15 years old. That was 52 years ago. I think I am getting a handle on it. When you have 52 years of stability study behind you, give me a call. We can discuss it.

It's raining. I like the sound of it. We have had a dry spell here in the PNW.

My dog took one of my shoes and dropped it out in the front yard. It is one of my lawn mowing shoes. I had better go collect it. I really don't need it. I can hear Nick, my lawn mower guy out there right now mowing his heart out. You never know. I may decide to mow my own lawn again some day. I will need that shoe.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
post #2005 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,631
Thanks: 4
Thanked 159 Times in 150 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"too much sail area"?
No, but sometimes they tell me about the handling issues they are having and I tell them, "You boat has too much sail area." (For you)

Kind of like telling them, "You need training wheels."
PCP, smackdaddy and SloopJonB like this.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
post #2006 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
Senior Member
 
skygazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: western Maine
Posts: 583
Thanks: 25
Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Sky:
...Don't feel bad. Stabilty is hard. I have been working to understand it since I was 15 years old. That was 52 years ago. I think I am getting a handle on it. When you have 52 years of stability study behind you, give me a call. We can discuss it.
Batman,
OK, then watch for my call ...........when I'm 115 years old. Of course, I might not study as hard as you, so maybe a bit later than that.
skygazer is offline  
post #2007 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
Moderator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 7,192
Thanks: 6
Thanked 195 Times in 159 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
.. Still got the spline and weights too??
Yes I still have my splines, duck weights and Copenhagen ships curves. I pulled some of my old equipment out when I was working on the design for the late Wolfenzee. I was having trouble getting the shape that I wanted on screen so I hand drafted it over a print of the drawing then took offsets and used the offsets to get fair curves on the computer. There was something nice about hand drafting again.
Faster and smackdaddy like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Jeff_H is offline  
post #2008 of 5317 Old 10-30-2013
Senior Member
 
blt2ski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,138
Thanks: 1
Thanked 40 Times in 39 Posts
Rep Power: 13
   
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One does not need a pencil, paper and straight and curves to draw plans up?!?!?!?!?! wow.......I must still be in the dark ages.....or is that REALLY dark ages......a puter? what the H is that?

Has Mr BP had his new project announced yet?

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
blt2ski is offline  
post #2009 of 5317 Old 10-31-2013
Junior Member
 
Jabberwock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Russia
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
The old salts actually raised weights to the masthead to reduce their stability in big waves.
That's very interesting! I read something years ago like that. It's interesting to me now because I'm currently having a boat designed with a lifting keel and I was wondering if would ever be a good Idea to the partially lift the keel up in a storm. I could see it putting less stress on the boat but the question is would it actually be a strategy to reduce the chance of roll over? If it is, it's kind of counter intuitive.

Edit: Mehhh, I guess I should have read down a bit. But it's still a question in my mind.

Last edited by Jabberwock; 10-31-2013 at 12:53 AM.
Jabberwock is offline  
post #2010 of 5317 Old 10-31-2013
Senior Moment Member
 
SloopJonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 12,753
Thanks: 81
Thanked 102 Times in 98 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I've heard the opinion that it's better to have it up at least somewhat because it reduces the chance of the boat "tripping" if it gets shoved sideways by a big breaking sea - the thinking being that with the reduced lateral plane, the boat can slide sideways instead of rolling.

I dunno - there is a certain intuitive logic to it but I've never been anywhere near that sort of extreme situation.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
SloopJonB is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 13 05-20-2015 12:05 AM
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 08-25-2014 05:08 PM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome