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  #2001  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I agree with you and I think also that the RM at 90º is important. For having a big value all you need is a boat with a big Max GZ and a boat with a 120º degree AVS. Most of the cruisers today have an AVS around 120 and very rarely you see a AVS superior to 130º (normally performance cruisers and race boats have the higher ones).

But that was not what I was asking, I was asking about that discussion about capsizing that goes on and on. Well, the best Na don't talk about that but many others have a lot of talk about that and the importance of the mass moment of inertia to the dynamic stability. I think that in what sailboats are concern the dynamics of sailing are more important, among them stiffness and the ability to carry sail even on bad weather and have that way the boat firmly "tied" is probably the more important. That was what I wanted to show with that movies. Even the Smaller and lighter Figaro II was sailing among waves, taking waves on the side without rolling or altering its trajectory. That's because the boat is stiff and its "tied" to a side by the wind. Sorry If I cannot explain better what I mean. It is more easy to see it in the movies, or do it in the sea.

You know I am talking about this type of thinking:

"Many years ago during the Fastnet Race, rigorous analyses done after the loss of many vessels revealed that the boats which had concentrated ballast, light structure, and very light rigging suffered excessively due to their harsh rolling motions which caused many dismastings, consequent capsizes, and widespread seasickness.

By comparison, boats with heavier structure, lesser "ballast ratios" and heavier rigs resisted being "thrown" into severe rolling, had a much more seakindly roll motion, were easier on their rigs, did not lose their rigs, did not capsize, and did not experience nearly the degree of sea sickness among their crews. This is counter-intuitive because undoubtedly the heavier vessels had a higher center of gravity and therefore less "static" stability. However due to their distributed masses they had much greater "dynamic" stability, which enhanced both seakindliness and seakeeping ability.

With regard to structure, as compared to a fiberglass vessel a steel vessel will inherently have its mass distributed farther from its roll center, therefore a steel vessel will have a higher roll or mass moment of inertia and will be less active 'dynamically' in terms of roll, pitch, and yaw."


Beam vs. Ballast

You are right, that is not important. Top professional sailors know which are the more seaworthy boats and the designers that design them too.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-30-2013 at 07:46 PM.
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  #2002  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by skygazer View Post
That is scary interesting. Was the purpose to slow the roll or something else?
Upon reflection, I often launch with the mast down, and raise it at anchor or on the mooring with gin pole, double block and tackle, and stabilizers.

Particularly if I spend the night on the mooring with the mast unstepped, and raise the mast the next morning, I'm struck by how much more comfortably my boat suddenly rides at the mooring.

The old square riggers were constantly dropping and raising those top masts, so they must have noticed the difference.

This is deep thinking for me, why I read this stuff. Even if I'm lost, as least I'm thinking.
  #2003  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I'll take the stiff boat thanks. Nobosy has ever called me and said, "My boat's too stiff."
Me too. Out of curiosity, have any of your clients ever called and said "My boat has too much sail area"?
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  #2004  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sky:
Yes, I think the idea was to INCREASE the early LACK of stability. Sounds weird. But these old ships didnt heel more them 20 degrees or they were in deep feces. By decreasing initial stability they were trying or maybe insurring the ship stayed more upright (vertical) rather than trying to conform to the face of the wave, i.e.; perpendicular to the face of the wave. I'm sure it worked for them but it is an entirley different situation ( I'm not going to say scenario) then what we face in a modern yacht. We are all good past 90 degrees.

Don't feel bad. Stabilty is hard. I have been working to understand it since I was 15 years old. That was 52 years ago. I think I am getting a handle on it. When you have 52 years of stability study behind you, give me a call. We can discuss it.

It's raining. I like the sound of it. We have had a dry spell here in the PNW.

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  #2005  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"too much sail area"?
No, but sometimes they tell me about the handling issues they are having and I tell them, "You boat has too much sail area." (For you)

Kind of like telling them, "You need training wheels."
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  #2006  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Sky:
...Don't feel bad. Stabilty is hard. I have been working to understand it since I was 15 years old. That was 52 years ago. I think I am getting a handle on it. When you have 52 years of stability study behind you, give me a call. We can discuss it.
Batman,
OK, then watch for my call ...........when I'm 115 years old. Of course, I might not study as hard as you, so maybe a bit later than that.
  #2007  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
.. Still got the spline and weights too??
Yes I still have my splines, duck weights and Copenhagen ships curves. I pulled some of my old equipment out when I was working on the design for the late Wolfenzee. I was having trouble getting the shape that I wanted on screen so I hand drafted it over a print of the drawing then took offsets and used the offsets to get fair curves on the computer. There was something nice about hand drafting again.
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  #2008  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One does not need a pencil, paper and straight and curves to draw plans up?!?!?!?!?! wow.......I must still be in the dark ages.....or is that REALLY dark ages......a puter? what the H is that?

Has Mr BP had his new project announced yet?

Marty
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  #2009  
Old 10-31-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
The old salts actually raised weights to the masthead to reduce their stability in big waves.
That's very interesting! I read something years ago like that. It's interesting to me now because I'm currently having a boat designed with a lifting keel and I was wondering if would ever be a good Idea to the partially lift the keel up in a storm. I could see it putting less stress on the boat but the question is would it actually be a strategy to reduce the chance of roll over? If it is, it's kind of counter intuitive.

Edit: Mehhh, I guess I should have read down a bit. But it's still a question in my mind.

Last edited by Jabberwock; 10-31-2013 at 12:53 AM.
  #2010  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I've heard the opinion that it's better to have it up at least somewhat because it reduces the chance of the boat "tripping" if it gets shoved sideways by a big breaking sea - the thinking being that with the reduced lateral plane, the boat can slide sideways instead of rolling.

I dunno - there is a certain intuitive logic to it but I've never been anywhere near that sort of extreme situation.
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