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  #2071  
Old 11-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanton View Post
Koopman's Design. The toe rail seems to indicate that the boat might be aluminum built and not steel.
The weight too (7T) so maybe you are right but the boat is advertised for steel boat. Also the tankage is typical of a fast and light boat, not of an heavier steel cruiser.

If it is the case and the add is wrong then they are pretty dumb because a 30 year old aluminum boat has a market value bigger than a steel one.


Koopmans 37 YEAR 1984, MATERIAL Steel. In German is also advertised as a steel boat:

"Robuste Stahlyacht mit Teakdeck und hervorragenden Segeleigenschaften.
Für sicheres und komfortables Reisen auf See."

http://www.boat24.com/uk/Sail+Boats/.../detail/42934/

Here you have what looks like the same design (also steel) but without teak. Here they give some more details:

"Sailingyacht Koopmans 37 "Vita Nova", built in 1979/1980 by Huizer Marina - Holland, dim.: 11,45 (lwl 9.50) x 3.37 x 2.00 m, headway approx. 18 m, designed by Dick Koopmans sr, steel hull, wood epoxy superstructure and deck, teak cockpit, Moonlight hardened glass windows in aluminium framing (2000), round bilged blue hull with white striping, fin keel, displacement approx. 10 tonnes, ballast approx. 3,3 tonnes (lead), fuel tank approx. 120 litres (steel), fresh water tank approx. 2x 150 litres in GRP tanks, tiller steering, emergency tiller."

http://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokera...S-37.html#tab2

So it seems that on the first boat they have the weight wrong or the material wrong. 10T is good for a steel boat and a lot more credible than 7T. However it seems that this one has the same type of toe rail, if not the same. Maybe because the deck is not steel?

Anyway Koopmans used to make the same design in steel and aluminium (with the needed structural alterations) so it is possible that the weight is right and that the first one is an aluminium version.

I think the boat is this one:



That later evolved to this nicer and more modern hull;


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2013 at 10:12 AM.
  #2072  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Ok, here's the deal on ISAF lifeline spacing. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but don' blame me I didn' write the rules. But I have been studying them for application on the PSC 62' ketch.

Then lifeline spacing is measured from the "working deck". It has nothing to do with the bulwark or the toe rail. So, if you have the lower lifeline 20" above the deck and you have a 4" bulwark or tow rail the ISAF regs still only see the 20". They do not count the
4" height of the bulwark.

It's annoying but it's the way the rule is written.
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  #2073  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

And then, there is this little cute one:





With the hull not far from the ones from Brent (offered in single or twin keels) but with an overall nicer look.





The designer is Tanton, the more recent poster on this thread.
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  #2074  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
The thing is that Brent is not misinformed, while on boat design he is outmatched here, when it comes to cruising cred he has some runs on the board......
Regarding Brent's boats I do not see anything wrong with them. The real problem is that for him any boat that don't follow is design criteria does not make sense...and most of the boast don' follow is design criteria.

Sure he does not know much about theory and his drawings are not nice but Bob Perry confessed that when he designed some of his best designs (long time ago) he did not made stability curves for them. He knew intuitively that they would work, as Brent knows. Brent has already a big experience with that type of boats and I have no doubt that he knows what works, or at least some of the things that work.

The problem is that Brent had showed some crazy stability curves that makes no sense to prove his boats are perfect. He makes no sense statements about boats that are very different from the ones that he builds and that he don't fully understand. He makes absurd statements about impossible performances and speed comparison with lighter and bigger boats. He is not the only one but he is a designer and should know better. It seems that his type of boats are the only ones he know thoroughly and he should only talk about what he knows best.

All this does nothing good to his credibility and pisses everybody.

Regarding drawings, most if not all of Brent's boats are built by amateurs and it is obviously that they manage to build them by Brent's designs. He is even quite popular among steel amateur boat builders, so I think he can say that even if his designs are not nice they are at least functional.

Regarding the look of his boats I don't think any has been built by a reputable shipyard, not because they cannot be built there but because the type of sailors that want his boats want an inexpensive boat and want to make the boat themselves. The look will never be as good as if the boat was made by a top professional shipyard and some are just plain ugly in the details. It is also true that Brent personally does not care much about how a boat looks providing it works and his boats works and they are used for extensive voyaging.

Even so looking at the net I could find some relativelly nice boats, not bad at all if we consider they were built by amateurs on a shoe string and that Brent personally gives not a sh*t how the boat looks or at least is what he says.



























Regards

Paulo
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  #2075  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo:
I agree with you. Brent doesn't much care how the boats look. If he did he would provide design drawings that enabled the builder to replicate his design ideas. Most of Brents boats could be greatly improved aesthetically with just better choice of paint schemes and colors.

But I see one boat in that group that is very good looking. In the second photo there is a pilot house boat off to the right, on the next dock. Now that is a good looking boat. And, they built 600 of them!
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  #2076  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post


Nicely done, this one..
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  #2077  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

That's nice but it's missing the BS touches like a hard dodger and the refigerator door companionway. It also has dangerous normal stanchions and lifelines.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
That's nice but it's missing the BS touches like a hard dodger and the refigerator door companionway. It also has dangerous normal stanchions and lifelines.
Yes.... all true. So.. either it's not a Brent boat... or possibly Brent would not approve???
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  #2079  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Either way it looks good. If it's the BS 34' hull I have always thought that was a decent looking hull. It's the agricultural deck structures that my eyes stub on. It's inevitable that some builder with a bit of an eye and some taste could do at least a passable cabin trunk.
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  #2080  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I agree with you. Brent doesn't much care how the boats look. If he did he would provide design drawings that enabled the builder to replicate his design ideas. Most of Brents boats could be greatly improved aesthetically with just better choice of paint schemes and colors.

But I see one boat in that group that is very good looking. In the second photo there is a pilot house boat off to the right, on the next dock. Now that is a good looking boat. And, they built 600 of them!
So is Mr BP going to say that that Bob Perry guy whom probably designed that boat to the right in the 2nd photo is the best designer..............again......



Any way, while out doing my rounds today, found a qtly rag put out by West systems folks. Had a neat article on the sliver project. Have you seen it?

Marty
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